4 ms·

It is equivalent to one of those films where the poor have to live on earth in relative poverty while the rich live in a base in orbit that sustains itself and

by wayn3 10y ago

It is equivalent to one of those films where the poor have to live on earth in relative poverty while the rich live in a base in orbit that sustains itself and is basically heaven. Do you believe the "not rich" wouldn't want to cross the wall?

yummyfajitas 10y ago
But why can't the people living on earth create their own functional economy? In Elysium (the movie you are referring to) the answer is clear: Earth is full of sick children, Mexicans and lovable criminals. For reasons I didn't quite understand, those Mexicans are unable to build a functioning economy (perhaps because the lovable criminals cause too many problems). Do you believe that this is an accurate reflection of reality, namely that the non-rich can't organize themselves into a livable society without the aid of the rich?
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Did you overlook the stifling, robotically enforced social control in Elysium? Why didn't the people on Earth start their own farms? Because the robots came and killed them if they tried.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    I watched the movie on an airplane many years ago. I vaguely remember Matt Damon working in a robot factory and having a robot parole officer. I think robot bodyguards also protected Willem Dafoe. I don't recall robots preventing people from starting farms or providing medical care to the sick children, and that's missing from the wikipedia summary of the movie. Why would they do that? How would it benefit the space station to prevent earthers from building a functioning society?
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Yeah, I haven't watched it recently either. But the social control is certainly implied (and the script was messy enough without spending 1/2 hour really spelling it out).
      - yummyfajitas 10y ago
        The social control might be present in the movie, but in reality it mostly doesn't exist. In reality we generally just ignore our low productivity areas, and perhaps make sure the folks from there can't cause problems elsewhere. The NYC and SF elites occasionally try to feel good by pointless throwing $100M at local problems that money can't fix [1], but mostly they ignore Newark. The Mumbai elite don't impose social control on the rural hinterlands, they just don't go there. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerbergs-failed-100-million-donation-to-newark-public-schools-2015-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerbergs-failed-100-m...
        maxerickson 10y ago
        perhaps make sure the folks from there can't cause problems elsewhere This is wandering dangerously close to the definition of social control. It might be efficient, disinterested social control, but it's control nonetheless.
        yummyfajitas 10y ago
        It's social control to ensure that people from Newark act according to NYC behavioral standards when they take the PATH in? In any case, this is very different from what you postulated happened: Why didn't the people on [Newark] start their own farms? Because the [NYPD] came and killed them if they tried.
        maxerickson 10y ago
        NYPD doesn't have cheap robots yet, so it's hard to say what New York elites would do given the chance (and some time to convince themselves that what they were doing was just). But I agree, your scenario doesn't match up well with my interpretation of the movie.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Usually the rich people own the resources and charge the poor to use them. It's pretty hard to make an economy without fuels, mines, farmland or even water.
- wayn3 10y ago
  I think you forget that many such situations already exist on earth. Tell me why the farmers in north korea can't just start a functional economy? Or african refugees that pile up on italian islands? Why is america walled off? Literally towards the south and figuratively towards the rest of the world? Why is america so afraid that I may actually contribute to society that they can't allow me to type out a single line of code while I'm on their continent? Why is china wrapping all their seaside cities into special economic interest zones while a billion farmers have to be subjected to quasi stalinist idiocy? Why are mexicans trying to enter the US? It surely cant be that difficult to start a reasonable economy on their own terms? Why did the east germans try to jump the wall? East Germany was shit by comparison, but it certainly wasn't compared to other parts of the world? The people in Elysium depended on earths resources. They turned all earthers into de facto slaves. This may be a bit of a stretch compared to reality, but in principle, it is what we are doing all around the world. You wake up, drink your gluten free soylent, take a shower, sit down and begin to type words into a computer that literally change the world. They will be deployed on machines you've never seen and maybe don't fully understand, but in doing so you can take important jobs away that feed families, build spacecraft that will colonize mars, etc. Your instacart delivery will pop up around 2pm. You call an uber to get to the gym because you would turn fat if you didnt regularly exercise. You spend an hour in the bathroom to groom your hipster beard and then head out to have an ironic pabst with all your hipster friends who live similar lifestyles. And you didn't even realize how many people you virtually ran over that day. Maybe not you, but that could be a typical day in the life of your average hackernewser. Do you really think you have all that much in common with a Louisiana coal miner who fears for the well-being of his family? We may as well be aliens to them. We are already walled off. We are masters over the machines. They are not. We have already "won". People are free to enter our society, we won't judge, but all those people out there who voted trump because they're scared of US are real. People who drink pabst because they can't AFFORD non-ironic brands of beer. Its not that the poor can't organize themselves. Maybe they can't, I don't know - but throughout history, the poor were usually oppressed into varying forms of slavery. In the US, for example, the womb you pop out of decides whether you're going to public school or real school. Maybe in principle, these people have a fair shot at social mobility, but what if modern society requires a level of education that they just never had a chance of achieving? I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

by wayn3 10y ago

yummyfajitas 10y ago

But why can't the people living on earth create their own functional economy? In Elysium (the movie you are referring to) the answer is clear: Earth is full of sick children, Mexicans and lovable criminals. For reasons I didn't quite understand, those Mexicans are unable to build a functioning economy (perhaps because the lovable criminals cause too many problems). Do you believe that this is an accurate reflection of reality, namely that the non-rich can't organize themselves into a livable society without the aid of the rich?

maxerickson 10y ago
Did you overlook the stifling, robotically enforced social control in Elysium? Why didn't the people on Earth start their own farms? Because the robots came and killed them if they tried.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  I watched the movie on an airplane many years ago. I vaguely remember Matt Damon working in a robot factory and having a robot parole officer. I think robot bodyguards also protected Willem Dafoe. I don't recall robots preventing people from starting farms or providing medical care to the sick children, and that's missing from the wikipedia summary of the movie. Why would they do that? How would it benefit the space station to prevent earthers from building a functioning society?
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Yeah, I haven't watched it recently either. But the social control is certainly implied (and the script was messy enough without spending 1/2 hour really spelling it out).
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      The social control might be present in the movie, but in reality it mostly doesn't exist. In reality we generally just ignore our low productivity areas, and perhaps make sure the folks from there can't cause problems elsewhere. The NYC and SF elites occasionally try to feel good by pointless throwing $100M at local problems that money can't fix [1], but mostly they ignore Newark. The Mumbai elite don't impose social control on the rural hinterlands, they just don't go there. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerbergs-failed-100-million-donation-to-newark-public-schools-2015-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerbergs-failed-100-m...
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        perhaps make sure the folks from there can't cause problems elsewhere This is wandering dangerously close to the definition of social control. It might be efficient, disinterested social control, but it's control nonetheless.
        yummyfajitas 10y ago
        It's social control to ensure that people from Newark act according to NYC behavioral standards when they take the PATH in? In any case, this is very different from what you postulated happened: Why didn't the people on [Newark] start their own farms? Because the [NYPD] came and killed them if they tried.
        maxerickson 10y ago
        NYPD doesn't have cheap robots yet, so it's hard to say what New York elites would do given the chance (and some time to convince themselves that what they were doing was just). But I agree, your scenario doesn't match up well with my interpretation of the movie.
pjc50 10y ago
Usually the rich people own the resources and charge the poor to use them. It's pretty hard to make an economy without fuels, mines, farmland or even water.
wayn3 10y ago
I think you forget that many such situations already exist on earth. Tell me why the farmers in north korea can't just start a functional economy? Or african refugees that pile up on italian islands? Why is america walled off? Literally towards the south and figuratively towards the rest of the world? Why is america so afraid that I may actually contribute to society that they can't allow me to type out a single line of code while I'm on their continent? Why is china wrapping all their seaside cities into special economic interest zones while a billion farmers have to be subjected to quasi stalinist idiocy? Why are mexicans trying to enter the US? It surely cant be that difficult to start a reasonable economy on their own terms? Why did the east germans try to jump the wall? East Germany was shit by comparison, but it certainly wasn't compared to other parts of the world? The people in Elysium depended on earths resources. They turned all earthers into de facto slaves. This may be a bit of a stretch compared to reality, but in principle, it is what we are doing all around the world. You wake up, drink your gluten free soylent, take a shower, sit down and begin to type words into a computer that literally change the world. They will be deployed on machines you've never seen and maybe don't fully understand, but in doing so you can take important jobs away that feed families, build spacecraft that will colonize mars, etc. Your instacart delivery will pop up around 2pm. You call an uber to get to the gym because you would turn fat if you didnt regularly exercise. You spend an hour in the bathroom to groom your hipster beard and then head out to have an ironic pabst with all your hipster friends who live similar lifestyles. And you didn't even realize how many people you virtually ran over that day. Maybe not you, but that could be a typical day in the life of your average hackernewser. Do you really think you have all that much in common with a Louisiana coal miner who fears for the well-being of his family? We may as well be aliens to them. We are already walled off. We are masters over the machines. They are not. We have already "won". People are free to enter our society, we won't judge, but all those people out there who voted trump because they're scared of US are real. People who drink pabst because they can't AFFORD non-ironic brands of beer. Its not that the poor can't organize themselves. Maybe they can't, I don't know - but throughout history, the poor were usually oppressed into varying forms of slavery. In the US, for example, the womb you pop out of decides whether you're going to public school or real school. Maybe in principle, these people have a fair shot at social mobility, but what if modern society requires a level of education that they just never had a chance of achieving? I wouldn't be so quick to judge.