4 ms·

There are two distinct marketplaces for guitars, and almost any musical instrument. There is the 'beginner' level, which is basically school aged children wher

There are two distinct marketplaces for guitars, and almost any musical instrument. There is the 'beginner' level, which is basically school aged children where parents may purchase a guitar for them for school, or private lessons. This is where most big chain music stores aim at. Then there is the high end collector market, who spend the big bucks, and often purchase multiple guitars to stash away. Most guitar companies (such as Fender) try to become the 'be all and end all' across this range. Fender do have a high end custom shop to cater for the more wealthy or boutique market, but at the end of the day, they are spread pretty thin with their Mexican range, USA Standard range, Custom shop range etc. The biggest problem with the low end market is that kids these days just don't seem to realise the work ethic required to become proficient at guitar. I've played for over 40 years, I have two young sons who play, and I have done some teaching. Lots of kids seem to think that they can be playing at a performance level after only a couple of lessons (perhaps Guitar Hero has something to do with that?), and they quickly become disenchanted and lose interest once they realise the gruelling (boring) practice routine that they have to repeat over and over again in order to build muscle memory etc. But for a lot of beginners who approach me, I try and model the same thing I do when learning a new programming language, i.e. the best way to learn - REALLY learn - a new language is to actually build something with it. Which is why I find that it is useful to get a kid to tell me his favourite song, and just work out the melody or the riff to the song and build on that, just to keep their interest going and make the inconvenience of the other exercises less of a burden. The world is also sadly lacking in 'guitar heroes' these days. Not the game, but actual players. Guys like Hendrix, Page and Clapton inspired kids in the 60's and 70's. Van Halen etc. in the 80's, but then the guitar solo ceased to be a central 'thing' in most bands. Modern guitar players like Joe Bonamassa, Guthrie Govan or Julian Lage etc. just don't pull the crowds in like they used to.

StavrosK 10y ago
> Lots of kids seem to think that they can be playing at a performance level after only a couple of lessons That's not just kids and guitar, it's everyone and everything. Most people have a high-level concept of "I would like to be good at X" without actually liking X, they just like the perks that come with being good at it. These people quit after realizing how much effort it's going to be, be it playing an instrument, programming or woodworking. > the best way to learn - REALLY learn - a new language is to actually build something with it That's the best way to learn anything, i.e. to like the process of learning, and the best way to like the process of learning is to work on something you like working on. Nobody likes doing scales, even though they're necessary, so you have to intersperse it with something that will keep people practicing.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Kinda like riding a bike. You leap in and learn as you go. The danger and learning curve is shadowed by the fun.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> The biggest problem with the low end market is that kids these days just don't seem to realise the work ethic required to become proficient at guitar. I've played for over 40 years, I have two young sons who play, and I have done some teaching. Were you teaching 30 years ago? I suspect that people didn't have much of a work ethic back then, either - but you weren't teaching them, so you didn't realize it.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  I've been teaching others to play on and off for the past 40 years. Started off with just friends and other band members, then friends of friends etc. Nowadays mainly friends of my sons. I do see a distinct different in the motivation between then and now. Back then, the kids usually had a particular player they wanted to emulate, or an album of songs they wanted to learn. Yes quite a few of them found that they couldn't play like their hero straight away and gave up, but their motivation seemed to be different. Most kids I see today seem to want to do it because they just think it will be a 'cool' thing to do. Perhaps they think it is an easy way to pick up members of the opposite sex or something? A few of my son's friends see him play (my son is VERY good) and want to be like him, but when they realise how much work it takes (my son plays for 2 to 4 hours per day, every single day), they rapidly lose interest.
  - paublyrne 10y ago
    Most kids I see today seem to want to do it because they think it will be a 'cool' thing to do. Perhaps they think it is an easy way to pick up members of the opposite sex or something? I would be pretty certain that has been the case since the the 1960s.
    - cyberferret 10y ago
      On that, we can certainly agree! :-D
      - ptaipale 10y ago
jeremysmyth 10y ago
"There are two distinct marketplaces for guitars, and almost any musical instrument. There is the 'beginner' level, which is basically school aged children... Then there is the high end collector market, who spend the big bucks" This is missing out the vast midrange of working musicians (or erstwhile working musicians who still play a lot privately). In the Fender world, collectors might buy old or particularly prestigious models, but your standard MIA Strat is a working guitar that won't necessarily appreciate in value but isn't typically bought by beginners (or collectors, for that matter). Same with many other brands (such as those you'd see played by guitar bands); while Ibanez or Jackson might have a relatively cheap model aimed at beginners, they also make rock-solid working guitars that you see played in your local bar or club, or in studio, or on stadium stages, but not in a collector's vault.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Agreed that I left out an important segment, but I guess I was focused on the business case for the two extremes. The low end entry level stuff probably makes money for Fender due to the sheer turnover. The high end makes them money due to the larger profit margins. As for the mid range, or 'working musicians guitars', it wouldn't surprise me if these were 'break even' or loss leaders for them. Most working musicians I know have a mid range workhorse guitar they use on bar gigs and open mics, but they also usually tend to have a high end guitar or two that they use for wedding gigs or purely for recording/private playing.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    I can't provide sources (for obvious reasons), but I can tell you that there's a power-law relationship between retail price and gross margin. The cheapest starter guitars are very close to breakeven because of absolutely vicious price competition. Mid-range instruments are less profitable than they used to be, but they're still the bread and butter of the industry. The "custom shop" level of instruments are outrageously profitable, but they're also rather difficult to sell. Buyers for $5,000 guitars are few in number and exceedingly picky. Prestige brands like Gibson, Fender and PRS rely to a significant extent on the "rich dentist" market of collectors, but most other brands don't sell significant quantities of super-premium guitars. Top-shelf guitars are often halo products, used to elevate the prestige of more affordable mid-range guitars. Having a "custom shop" in America or Japan is often treated as a marketing expense rather than a profit center.
mfukar 10y ago
I don't think it's just the Guitar Hero generation, nor just kids, nor just musical instruments. There's a profound lack of discipline which hits often and early when somebody attempts to learn a craft. Most people rely on wanting to be good or motivation based on a fleeting image of some (form of) rockstar. When inevitably that image crumbles, they've got no discipline to follow through. Even good teachers can't always give that to them.
dominotw 10y ago
Learning music is nothing like learning a programming language. Atleast not how its usually taught. I can spend a month or two learning ruby/ror and build an semi-decent website, sure I have no idea how its all working but I have a sense of accomplishment that makes me want to learn more about how it working under the hood to build a better website. Music on the other hand is where you have to learn syntax of ruby for around 5 yrs and then learn activerecord for 5 yrs before you think you can build a website. This is not true but that how music teachers tell you that it is, perhaps so you can keep coming back for more lessons ?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nercht12 10y ago
What you said is definitely true. Being connected with people in the industry I heard the Guitar Hero and RockBand eras brought in tons of players. Multiple teachers popped up only to find it difficult to pay the rent these days now that not as many kids are showing up. Some of it is disillusionment I'm sure, but the instant-gratification mentality of this society isn't helping. It's easier to play a song on Youtube and pretend to play the guitar than actually learn the instrument. Anyone in particular for more recent artists (guitarists in particular) who you'd at least tip a hat to?
agumonkey 10y ago
I thought Guitar Hero would help by providing an intermediate, even if fake, land to experience time and melody. About heroes, don't you think the whole music industry, culture even has faded ? I don't feel anything like the days of Queen at Wembley, Dire Straits, Police, even festivals seeems to be down to mundane and not as glowing as before (granted 1: I wasn't born for these, 2: generation bias can be at play). From 50s to 70s there was a pioneering vibe there. About teaching, how do you blend theory after the "play your favorite melody" stage ? not a critical question, just curious.

StavrosK 10y ago

> Lots of kids seem to think that they can be playing at a performance level after only a couple of lessons That's not just kids and guitar, it's everyone and everything. Most people have a high-level concept of "I would like to be good at X" without actually liking X, they just like the perks that come with being good at it. These people quit after realizing how much effort it's going to be, be it playing an instrument, programming or woodworking. > the best way to learn - REALLY learn - a new language is to actually build something with it That's the best way to learn anything, i.e. to like the process of learning, and the best way to like the process of learning is to work on something you like working on. Nobody likes doing scales, even though they're necessary, so you have to intersperse it with something that will keep people practicing.

agumonkey 10y ago
Kinda like riding a bike. You leap in and learn as you go. The danger and learning curve is shadowed by the fun.

pavel_lishin 10y ago

> The biggest problem with the low end market is that kids these days just don't seem to realise the work ethic required to become proficient at guitar. I've played for over 40 years, I have two young sons who play, and I have done some teaching. Were you teaching 30 years ago? I suspect that people didn't have much of a work ethic back then, either - but you weren't teaching them, so you didn't realize it.

cyberferret 10y ago
I've been teaching others to play on and off for the past 40 years. Started off with just friends and other band members, then friends of friends etc. Nowadays mainly friends of my sons. I do see a distinct different in the motivation between then and now. Back then, the kids usually had a particular player they wanted to emulate, or an album of songs they wanted to learn. Yes quite a few of them found that they couldn't play like their hero straight away and gave up, but their motivation seemed to be different. Most kids I see today seem to want to do it because they just think it will be a 'cool' thing to do. Perhaps they think it is an easy way to pick up members of the opposite sex or something? A few of my son's friends see him play (my son is VERY good) and want to be like him, but when they realise how much work it takes (my son plays for 2 to 4 hours per day, every single day), they rapidly lose interest.
- paublyrne 10y ago
  Most kids I see today seem to want to do it because they think it will be a 'cool' thing to do. Perhaps they think it is an easy way to pick up members of the opposite sex or something? I would be pretty certain that has been the case since the the 1960s.
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    On that, we can certainly agree! :-D
    - ptaipale 10y ago

jeremysmyth 10y ago

"There are two distinct marketplaces for guitars, and almost any musical instrument. There is the 'beginner' level, which is basically school aged children... Then there is the high end collector market, who spend the big bucks" This is missing out the vast midrange of working musicians (or erstwhile working musicians who still play a lot privately). In the Fender world, collectors might buy old or particularly prestigious models, but your standard MIA Strat is a working guitar that won't necessarily appreciate in value but isn't typically bought by beginners (or collectors, for that matter). Same with many other brands (such as those you'd see played by guitar bands); while Ibanez or Jackson might have a relatively cheap model aimed at beginners, they also make rock-solid working guitars that you see played in your local bar or club, or in studio, or on stadium stages, but not in a collector's vault.

cyberferret 10y ago
Agreed that I left out an important segment, but I guess I was focused on the business case for the two extremes. The low end entry level stuff probably makes money for Fender due to the sheer turnover. The high end makes them money due to the larger profit margins. As for the mid range, or 'working musicians guitars', it wouldn't surprise me if these were 'break even' or loss leaders for them. Most working musicians I know have a mid range workhorse guitar they use on bar gigs and open mics, but they also usually tend to have a high end guitar or two that they use for wedding gigs or purely for recording/private playing.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  I can't provide sources (for obvious reasons), but I can tell you that there's a power-law relationship between retail price and gross margin. The cheapest starter guitars are very close to breakeven because of absolutely vicious price competition. Mid-range instruments are less profitable than they used to be, but they're still the bread and butter of the industry. The "custom shop" level of instruments are outrageously profitable, but they're also rather difficult to sell. Buyers for $5,000 guitars are few in number and exceedingly picky. Prestige brands like Gibson, Fender and PRS rely to a significant extent on the "rich dentist" market of collectors, but most other brands don't sell significant quantities of super-premium guitars. Top-shelf guitars are often halo products, used to elevate the prestige of more affordable mid-range guitars. Having a "custom shop" in America or Japan is often treated as a marketing expense rather than a profit center.

mfukar 10y ago

I don't think it's just the Guitar Hero generation, nor just kids, nor just musical instruments. There's a profound lack of discipline which hits often and early when somebody attempts to learn a craft. Most people rely on wanting to be good or motivation based on a fleeting image of some (form of) rockstar. When inevitably that image crumbles, they've got no discipline to follow through. Even good teachers can't always give that to them.

dominotw 10y ago

Learning music is nothing like learning a programming language. Atleast not how its usually taught. I can spend a month or two learning ruby/ror and build an semi-decent website, sure I have no idea how its all working but I have a sense of accomplishment that makes me want to learn more about how it working under the hood to build a better website. Music on the other hand is where you have to learn syntax of ruby for around 5 yrs and then learn activerecord for 5 yrs before you think you can build a website. This is not true but that how music teachers tell you that it is, perhaps so you can keep coming back for more lessons ?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

nercht12 10y ago

What you said is definitely true. Being connected with people in the industry I heard the Guitar Hero and RockBand eras brought in tons of players. Multiple teachers popped up only to find it difficult to pay the rent these days now that not as many kids are showing up. Some of it is disillusionment I'm sure, but the instant-gratification mentality of this society isn't helping. It's easier to play a song on Youtube and pretend to play the guitar than actually learn the instrument. Anyone in particular for more recent artists (guitarists in particular) who you'd at least tip a hat to?

agumonkey 10y ago

I thought Guitar Hero would help by providing an intermediate, even if fake, land to experience time and melody. About heroes, don't you think the whole music industry, culture even has faded ? I don't feel anything like the days of Queen at Wembley, Dire Straits, Police, even festivals seeems to be down to mundane and not as glowing as before (granted 1: I wasn't born for these, 2: generation bias can be at play). From 50s to 70s there was a pioneering vibe there. About teaching, how do you blend theory after the "play your favorite melody" stage ? not a critical question, just curious.