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What kind of strength does one have to have on the finger to be able to hold himself with just the tip? I have always wondered. I only saw climbing scenes in mo

by tmd83 10y ago

What kind of strength does one have to have on the finger to be able to hold himself with just the tip? I have always wondered. I only saw climbing scenes in movies and have always wondered if people actually are able to work with such little grip and it seems they are. So for such climbing do they use earlier runs to put the rings (whatever they are call) for the safety lines during the actual climb?

jasonkester 10y ago
In general, when you see a climber bearing down on a tiny crimp that fits the very tip of just one finger, seeming to support his body weight on it, that is exactly what is happening. His feet will be on holds that are considerably worse. The amazing thing is that if you apply yourself to climbing and train for a few years, you will be able to move off similar holds in similar positions. It's a pretty cool feeling.
- zond 10y ago
  The thing is, usually those foot holds are holding most of the weight - a chip for the foot is worth a jug in the hand :)
- bhickey 10y ago
  Not to mention core strength! Tiny little holds are often at inconvenient angles. To pull on those features his entire body is engaged.
- rectang 10y ago
  As a non-climber, when I watch the Dawn Wall videos, there's an illusion that the surface is 90 degrees sheer, perpendicular to the ground. Understanding that there is actually a slight incline puts those tiny holds in a little more context, moving the concept of clinging to the wall's surface from "impossible" to "outrageous".
  - wlll 10y ago
    For some comparison here's Adam Ondra climbing another route. And no, this photo wasn't rotated 90°, it is really an overhang :) https://www.8a.nu/images/news/large/636002137114161240_13320515_786795324755406_315282076536749870_o.jpg https://www.8a.nu/images/news/large/636002137114161240_13320... A famous bouldering problem, "Witlness the Fitness" that inclues a cieling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PP1AK1Aqis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PP1AK1Aqis
carsonbaker 10y ago
There's just one safety line (it's called the lead line) and it runs through -- in the video you watch -- quickdraws (or slings with carabiners) that hang on bolts. On other pitches of climbing, it runs through different types of protection: cams, nuts, pitons, and what's called "fixed mank." And yes, the bolts here were originally installed earlier, possibly back in 70s by the first ascensionist, although I'm not sure what the history of the present-day bolts are. I'm guessing they were added by Caldwell/Jorgeson as they were preparing the free variation of this classic aid line some years ago. There are various ethical considerations in bolting and it gets very contentious among people who care about this sort of thing. Suffice to say, to free climb a route like this, yes, you have to be incredibly strong, mentally and physically.
- orly_bookz 10y ago
  I'm very interested now in what these ethical considerations would be. Do you mean that if people put in bolts that it might somehow dilute the climb?
  - chris_7 10y ago
    Imagine what would happen if everyone put their own bolts in.
    - wlll 10y ago
      Bolts are re-used between climbers. If someone bolts a route then other climbers use it. You never end up with a wall littered with bolts.
  - wlll 10y ago
    I climb, but I'm not 100% familiar with the ethical considerations personally. I think there are different viewpoints. I think these cover some of the views. Some people think that bolting a wall "spoils" it ecologically, damages it's pureness. Once you've run a line of bolts up a route you can't un-do it. There's always going to be at least bolt holes or bolts there. Some people don't think "sport" climbing (where you clip into quickdraws on the way up) is "real" climbing, but "trad" (where you place "pro", or protection, on the way up that you later "clean" or remove) is. You can still trad climb a route that's been bolted, you just ignore the bolts, but some people might consider it less pure as a result I guess.
spuz 10y ago
There's no doubt these top level climbers have incredibly strong fingers. But as an amateur climber, you'd probably be surprised at how much your grip strength improves to the point that you can hang by your finger tips on such small holds. Grip strength is not really something people use in every day life so unless you lift weights at the gym or go climbing your strength is probably pretty undeveloped. I think a lot of people see this and think I could never be that strong but after a bit of practice it does not feel so unlikely.
- CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
  Just worth noting: for those who want to increase their grip strength. The things you squeeze are fine, actually climbing (or lifting weights (or whatever)) is optimal. Avoid fingerboards for quite a while as those are a sure way to injure yourself if your body is not ready.
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    lifting weights does very little in actual fingers strength. there are funny videos around when muscular lifters try climbing, they fail quite fast after couple of moves. you can train a bit with various squeezy thingies, what helps too is just hanging by hands from some thicker bar (so you cannot grip it comfortably). but by far best training, especially in beginning is just climbing. it takes time for all connecting tissue to build up (tendons, ligament etc. - it's not about muscle for fingers). fingerboard can indeed be dangerous if attempted early - say from 6b-6c in french scale. much of the art of staying on the wall is about proper balance - this can be trained a bit on slackline for example, but again best training is just climbing often.
    - CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
      Honestly: it seemed a bit off to me too, but it was mentioned so I assumed it probably did something. Although, the lifter thing is more just that they don't realize they need to use their legs. Common problem in general, but most people are weak enough that they realize "Something isn't right here" soon enough. We like to mock one of our friends because he started off climbing and was completely drained after a single 5.7 because he used JUST his arms. Made it to the top (and got pretty damned far up a 5.8), but... holy crap. Few things will make you feel more inadequate than being reminded that your belayer used to do that.
Fricken 10y ago
Here's a video of a top climber's training routine, to give you an idea of what goes into developing the kind of strength needed to climb at an elite level: https://vimeo.com/66473915 https://vimeo.com/66473915 For pitch 15 of the Dawn wall, Caldwell drilled bolts with hangers into the granite likely while rapelling down from above and pre-placed quick draws (two carabiners connected by a short loop of webbing) on the bolt hangers- this was all done ahead of time in preparation for the redpoint, (the official climb done from the ground up) You can see Tommy in the video clipping his rope in as he goes along. The permanent bolts are only used on blank sections of the wall where there are no cracks available to place removable anchors such as nuts and cams.
takk309 10y ago
To make Caldwell's accomplishment more impressive, he is missing one of his index fingers. He lost it in a table saw quite a while ago.
brahmwg 10y ago
Should be noted, just to appreciate the kind of badass Tommy is, that he climbed the Dawn Wall with only 9 fingers :)

by tmd83 10y ago

jasonkester 10y ago

In general, when you see a climber bearing down on a tiny crimp that fits the very tip of just one finger, seeming to support his body weight on it, that is exactly what is happening. His feet will be on holds that are considerably worse. The amazing thing is that if you apply yourself to climbing and train for a few years, you will be able to move off similar holds in similar positions. It's a pretty cool feeling.

zond 10y ago
The thing is, usually those foot holds are holding most of the weight - a chip for the foot is worth a jug in the hand :)
bhickey 10y ago
Not to mention core strength! Tiny little holds are often at inconvenient angles. To pull on those features his entire body is engaged.
rectang 10y ago
As a non-climber, when I watch the Dawn Wall videos, there's an illusion that the surface is 90 degrees sheer, perpendicular to the ground. Understanding that there is actually a slight incline puts those tiny holds in a little more context, moving the concept of clinging to the wall's surface from "impossible" to "outrageous".
- wlll 10y ago
  For some comparison here's Adam Ondra climbing another route. And no, this photo wasn't rotated 90°, it is really an overhang :) https://www.8a.nu/images/news/large/636002137114161240_13320515_786795324755406_315282076536749870_o.jpg https://www.8a.nu/images/news/large/636002137114161240_13320... A famous bouldering problem, "Witlness the Fitness" that inclues a cieling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PP1AK1Aqis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PP1AK1Aqis

carsonbaker 10y ago

There's just one safety line (it's called the lead line) and it runs through -- in the video you watch -- quickdraws (or slings with carabiners) that hang on bolts. On other pitches of climbing, it runs through different types of protection: cams, nuts, pitons, and what's called "fixed mank." And yes, the bolts here were originally installed earlier, possibly back in 70s by the first ascensionist, although I'm not sure what the history of the present-day bolts are. I'm guessing they were added by Caldwell/Jorgeson as they were preparing the free variation of this classic aid line some years ago. There are various ethical considerations in bolting and it gets very contentious among people who care about this sort of thing. Suffice to say, to free climb a route like this, yes, you have to be incredibly strong, mentally and physically.

orly_bookz 10y ago
I'm very interested now in what these ethical considerations would be. Do you mean that if people put in bolts that it might somehow dilute the climb?
- chris_7 10y ago
  Imagine what would happen if everyone put their own bolts in.
  - wlll 10y ago
    Bolts are re-used between climbers. If someone bolts a route then other climbers use it. You never end up with a wall littered with bolts.
- wlll 10y ago
  I climb, but I'm not 100% familiar with the ethical considerations personally. I think there are different viewpoints. I think these cover some of the views. Some people think that bolting a wall "spoils" it ecologically, damages it's pureness. Once you've run a line of bolts up a route you can't un-do it. There's always going to be at least bolt holes or bolts there. Some people don't think "sport" climbing (where you clip into quickdraws on the way up) is "real" climbing, but "trad" (where you place "pro", or protection, on the way up that you later "clean" or remove) is. You can still trad climb a route that's been bolted, you just ignore the bolts, but some people might consider it less pure as a result I guess.

spuz 10y ago

There's no doubt these top level climbers have incredibly strong fingers. But as an amateur climber, you'd probably be surprised at how much your grip strength improves to the point that you can hang by your finger tips on such small holds. Grip strength is not really something people use in every day life so unless you lift weights at the gym or go climbing your strength is probably pretty undeveloped. I think a lot of people see this and think I could never be that strong but after a bit of practice it does not feel so unlikely.

CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
Just worth noting: for those who want to increase their grip strength. The things you squeeze are fine, actually climbing (or lifting weights (or whatever)) is optimal. Avoid fingerboards for quite a while as those are a sure way to injure yourself if your body is not ready.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  lifting weights does very little in actual fingers strength. there are funny videos around when muscular lifters try climbing, they fail quite fast after couple of moves. you can train a bit with various squeezy thingies, what helps too is just hanging by hands from some thicker bar (so you cannot grip it comfortably). but by far best training, especially in beginning is just climbing. it takes time for all connecting tissue to build up (tendons, ligament etc. - it's not about muscle for fingers). fingerboard can indeed be dangerous if attempted early - say from 6b-6c in french scale. much of the art of staying on the wall is about proper balance - this can be trained a bit on slackline for example, but again best training is just climbing often.
  - CmdrSprinkles 10y ago
    Honestly: it seemed a bit off to me too, but it was mentioned so I assumed it probably did something. Although, the lifter thing is more just that they don't realize they need to use their legs. Common problem in general, but most people are weak enough that they realize "Something isn't right here" soon enough. We like to mock one of our friends because he started off climbing and was completely drained after a single 5.7 because he used JUST his arms. Made it to the top (and got pretty damned far up a 5.8), but... holy crap. Few things will make you feel more inadequate than being reminded that your belayer used to do that.

Fricken 10y ago

Here's a video of a top climber's training routine, to give you an idea of what goes into developing the kind of strength needed to climb at an elite level: https://vimeo.com/66473915 https://vimeo.com/66473915 For pitch 15 of the Dawn wall, Caldwell drilled bolts with hangers into the granite likely while rapelling down from above and pre-placed quick draws (two carabiners connected by a short loop of webbing) on the bolt hangers- this was all done ahead of time in preparation for the redpoint, (the official climb done from the ground up) You can see Tommy in the video clipping his rope in as he goes along. The permanent bolts are only used on blank sections of the wall where there are no cracks available to place removable anchors such as nuts and cams.

takk309 10y ago

To make Caldwell's accomplishment more impressive, he is missing one of his index fingers. He lost it in a table saw quite a while ago.

brahmwg 10y ago

Should be noted, just to appreciate the kind of badass Tommy is, that he climbed the Dawn Wall with only 9 fingers :)