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About time. The Ruby, Elixir, and Rust communities are far, far along in their package management tools. Working with pip feels like going back in time these da

About time. The Ruby, Elixir, and Rust communities are far, far along in their package management tools. Working with pip feels like going back in time these days.

techman9 10y ago
Even npm (despite its many flaws) is in far better shape than pip.
- efrafa 10y ago
  I might be the only one, but I think npm is even better than bundler.
  - morgante 10y ago
    I'm with you there too. npm is by far the best package manager I've ever used.
    - LukaD 10y ago
      For me npm has always been the worst dependency manager I've used. What bugs me the the most is that it installs all packages to node_modules by default. It is possible to specify another location but then your application will probably break because it has to know where your node_modules directory is. Then there's the whole non-determinism thing: https://docs.npmjs.com/how-npm-works/npm3-nondet https://docs.npmjs.com/how-npm-works/npm3-nondet Also check out https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/10999 https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/10999 This is just insane!
      - Groxx 10y ago
        Pip has the same kinds of issues with transitive dependencies, but way way way worse since it doesn't allow multiple versions. When you have lib A requiring C ("A -> C1") and "B -> C2", the version of C you get depends on which of A or B was installed first, because the second's requirements are flat-out ignored. Probably like 90% of the python projects I've looked at have requirement-conflicts because pip doesn't even warn you about this.
      - derimagia 10y ago
        There are some issues with it, but think more about it's concepts. I agree at the very least that npm is better than pip, but I feel like pip is really outdated. I'm surprised so many people who are saying it's fine and that setup.py is fine... I think it's just they're more familiar with it. Check out yarn as well, some of it's practices are really awesome - getting inspiration from bundler and cargo. This is as someone who doesn't use either of these languages that much. Even composer is better than pip IMO.
      - Ajedi32 10y ago
        That's interesting, because personally I always found the fact that npm installs to `node_modules` to be one of its best features. No need for RVM Gemsets or python Virtualenv; everything gets installed inside your project directory and just works. Additionally, since each package gets its own `node_modules` directory, there's no need to worry about conflicting dependencies. Multiple versions of the same module can run in the same process with no interference.
  - Groxx 10y ago
    Minus the horrific bloat and slow install processes, and when you add a shrinkwrap file (otherwise prod runs who-knows-what)[1]: yeah, npm is pretty fantastic. No conflicts ever, super simple, they did a lot right. Fits in perfectly with the low-developer-brain-cost JS ecosystem. [1] this is quite a large number of cases, but they are significant drawbacks.
- henrygrew 10y ago
  Npm is surprisingly good and simple
- conceptme 10y ago
  I prefer composer defaults. Always save dependencies to the composer.json (eay to forget --save) Always create a lock file when doing composer install I do sort of like node's ability to recursively nest dependencies to avoid dependency hell. Though that has it's downsides too.. you will never know what is in your modules dir.

About time. The Ruby, Elixir, and Rust communities are far, far along in their package management tools. Working with pip feels like going back in time these days.

techman9 10y ago

Even npm (despite its many flaws) is in far better shape than pip.

efrafa 10y ago
I might be the only one, but I think npm is even better than bundler.
- morgante 10y ago
  I'm with you there too. npm is by far the best package manager I've ever used.
  - LukaD 10y ago
    For me npm has always been the worst dependency manager I've used. What bugs me the the most is that it installs all packages to node_modules by default. It is possible to specify another location but then your application will probably break because it has to know where your node_modules directory is. Then there's the whole non-determinism thing: https://docs.npmjs.com/how-npm-works/npm3-nondet https://docs.npmjs.com/how-npm-works/npm3-nondet Also check out https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/10999 https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/10999 This is just insane!
    - Groxx 10y ago
      Pip has the same kinds of issues with transitive dependencies, but way way way worse since it doesn't allow multiple versions. When you have lib A requiring C ("A -> C1") and "B -> C2", the version of C you get depends on which of A or B was installed first, because the second's requirements are flat-out ignored. Probably like 90% of the python projects I've looked at have requirement-conflicts because pip doesn't even warn you about this.
    - derimagia 10y ago
      There are some issues with it, but think more about it's concepts. I agree at the very least that npm is better than pip, but I feel like pip is really outdated. I'm surprised so many people who are saying it's fine and that setup.py is fine... I think it's just they're more familiar with it. Check out yarn as well, some of it's practices are really awesome - getting inspiration from bundler and cargo. This is as someone who doesn't use either of these languages that much. Even composer is better than pip IMO.
    - Ajedi32 10y ago
      That's interesting, because personally I always found the fact that npm installs to `node_modules` to be one of its best features. No need for RVM Gemsets or python Virtualenv; everything gets installed inside your project directory and just works. Additionally, since each package gets its own `node_modules` directory, there's no need to worry about conflicting dependencies. Multiple versions of the same module can run in the same process with no interference.
- Groxx 10y ago
  Minus the horrific bloat and slow install processes, and when you add a shrinkwrap file (otherwise prod runs who-knows-what)[1]: yeah, npm is pretty fantastic. No conflicts ever, super simple, they did a lot right. Fits in perfectly with the low-developer-brain-cost JS ecosystem. [1] this is quite a large number of cases, but they are significant drawbacks.
henrygrew 10y ago
Npm is surprisingly good and simple
conceptme 10y ago
I prefer composer defaults. Always save dependencies to the composer.json (eay to forget --save) Always create a lock file when doing composer install I do sort of like node's ability to recursively nest dependencies to avoid dependency hell. Though that has it's downsides too.. you will never know what is in your modules dir.