5 ms·

It's funny, a long time ago, my brother and I were debating what would be a good definition that draws a line between a real "computer", as opposed to a calcula

It's funny, a long time ago, my brother and I were debating what would be a good definition that draws a line between a real "computer", as opposed to a calculator/controller/toy/etc. I was advocating running a real OS kernel as a heuristic (but then you'd have to define what a "real kernel" would be), and him, being a Doom fan, came up with: "It counts as a real computer if it runs Doom."

out_of_protocol 10y ago
Better heuristic: You can run custom programms on it (doom included ;))
daveslash 10y ago
I just had to take 5 to ask my brother what his Hacker News handle is to confirm that you're not him.
dosshell 10y ago
I'm sorry to tell you it is even more complicated than if it can run doom. Does this count as doom? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuupoxmeQ6U https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuupoxmeQ6U Another definition i have seen is the QWERTY keyboard restriction. If i remember correctly some good calculators from Texas Instruments have abc keyword to be allowed on some big math tests in US. (Or is this maybe just a myth in Europe?)
- eganist 10y ago
  I've always considered a TI-83 to be a computer in its own right. It's called a calculator, but for as long as it's been a thing, it's been used as a more general computer as well.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  TI-83 has alphabetic input (but not QWERTY) Also, that's quite clearly not Doom. A Doom port must have at least E1 of the original Doom, with minimal layout changes. That means multiple levels, and up/down moving platforms, by definition.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    That video looks more like wolfenstein
- zokier 10y ago
  > If i remember correctly some good calculators from Texas Instruments have abc keyword to be allowed on some big math tests in US. (Or is this maybe just a myth in Europe?) Not a myth. College Board has a blanket ban on QWERTY keyboards in tests, so TI Nspire line has ABCDEF keyboards
  - toyg 10y ago
    Wait, why would they ban keyboard layouts?
    - scott_s 10y ago
      I imagine they were trying to define "computer" versus "calculator," and then banned computers.
    - swolchok 10y ago
      probably an outdated heuristic for distinguishing a "real computer" from a "calculator".
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    That is insane. Why? But then, a lot of things about the College Board are pretty nuts: It is the reason that graphing calculator companies can continue to scam the public by selling overpriced machines running at absurdly low speeds (Their most popular calculator is a 6-15MHz Z80, with 48-128K ram (but YOU, the programmer, can only access 24K): That's pathetic, and yet you can buy a chromebook (a LAPTOP capable of running the famously resource-hungry Chrome) for the same price). The Plus CE did a bit to improve this, but it's still less capable then the phone in your pocket: That is inexcusable).
    - zokier 10y ago
      > Their most popular calculator is a 6-15MHz Z80, with 48-128K ram (but YOU, the programmer, can only access 24K): That's pathetic, and yet you can buy a chromebook (a LAPTOP capable of running the famously resource-hungry Chrome) for the same price). The Plus CE did a bit to improve this, but it's still less capable then the phone in your pocket: That is inexcusable). The Nspire line isn't that bad.. It's not high-end by any means (it's still a damn calculator), but it at least got the lineup to 21st century.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Programmable calculators and computers are rather close, no? What about eCig batteries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQ6K8ariWs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQ6K8ariWs
- jmiserez 10y ago
  TI Voyage-200 and TI-92+ had a QWERTY keyboard, and almost the same internals as the TI-89.
spacehacker 10y ago
It is the same with questions like what counts as intelligence, what counts as alive? The boundaries shy away. In fact it is probably impossible to find simple definitions for these terms, i.e. definitions that get by without special rules for all kinds of instances which just feel more intelligent, alive or like a computer, or less. The definition is irreducible in the sense that we cannot explain our intuition without tracing back the history of our species and of the memes and neuronal firing patterns inside our brains, information that likely cannot be compressed very well. The same applies to human values. Stephen Wolfram just gave an interesting talk and Q/A session on this problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxQwpdB9wbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxQwpdB9wbg
cyberferret 10y ago
> "It counts as a real computer if it runs Doom." Haha. I remember back in the days when the benchmark for computing and graphic processing power was measured in terms of "Does it run Microsoft Flight Simulator?"
- DanBC 10y ago
  Also, "Is it a real PC clone?" used the "will it run MS Flight Simulator" test. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D0O_-ER3Z_gC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=flight+simulator+test+of+pc+clone&source=bl&ots=cLSFM3gAq5&sig=OQP3Wmr8_GaTPY4_QM6_lnn-oC0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizjqjl4LrQAhXpLcAKHcC3CTsQ6AEIMTAD#v=onepage&q=flight%20simulator%20test%20of%20pc%20clone&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D0O_-ER3Z_gC&pg=PA168&lp... (Bottom of 3rd column) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PjwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=flight+simulator+test+of+pc+clone&source=bl&ots=1xukhJrNgB&sig=e5cHAv6NPPmGG53gbHQus8ijiOs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizjqjl4LrQAhXpLcAKHcC3CTsQ6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=flight%20simulator%20test%20of%20pc%20clone&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PjwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wcv9oIHOrjQC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=flight+simulator+test+of+pc+clone&source=bl&ots=BAd3pvR9fN&sig=On7xLuAn2417eKshzvpNW7YbMyo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizjqjl4LrQAhXpLcAKHcC3CTsQ6AEINTAF#v=onepage&q=flight%20simulator%20test%20of%20pc%20clone&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wcv9oIHOrjQC&pg=PA170&lp...
dashoffset 10y ago
If it can run a Turing machine simulator, then it's a real computer.
WayneBro 10y ago
It counts as a real computer if you can program it with itself. That's my bar at least.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Does this count? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xCd55oSgO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xCd55oSgO4
vacri 10y ago
A million headless servers would disagree :)
- neilellis 10y ago
  Xvfb?
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  A million headless servers can X-forward DOOM to a desktop.
bane 10y ago
The demoscene doesn't really much care for these distinctions, if it has at least a display, the scene will try to get a cube rotating on it, or some copper bars, or something.
- dividuum 10y ago
  Sometimes even a display isn't necessary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1f6UE27KTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1f6UE27KTo
dbarlett 10y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20061029111228/http://www.itplaysdoom.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20061029111228/http://www.itplay...

out_of_protocol 10y ago

Better heuristic: You can run custom programms on it (doom included ;))

daveslash 10y ago

I just had to take 5 to ask my brother what his Hacker News handle is to confirm that you're not him.

dosshell 10y ago

I'm sorry to tell you it is even more complicated than if it can run doom. Does this count as doom? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuupoxmeQ6U https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuupoxmeQ6U Another definition i have seen is the QWERTY keyboard restriction. If i remember correctly some good calculators from Texas Instruments have abc keyword to be allowed on some big math tests in US. (Or is this maybe just a myth in Europe?)

eganist 10y ago
I've always considered a TI-83 to be a computer in its own right. It's called a calculator, but for as long as it's been a thing, it's been used as a more general computer as well.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
TI-83 has alphabetic input (but not QWERTY) Also, that's quite clearly not Doom. A Doom port must have at least E1 of the original Doom, with minimal layout changes. That means multiple levels, and up/down moving platforms, by definition.
- gohrt 10y ago
  That video looks more like wolfenstein
zokier 10y ago
> If i remember correctly some good calculators from Texas Instruments have abc keyword to be allowed on some big math tests in US. (Or is this maybe just a myth in Europe?) Not a myth. College Board has a blanket ban on QWERTY keyboards in tests, so TI Nspire line has ABCDEF keyboards
- toyg 10y ago
  Wait, why would they ban keyboard layouts?
  - scott_s 10y ago
    I imagine they were trying to define "computer" versus "calculator," and then banned computers.
  - swolchok 10y ago
    probably an outdated heuristic for distinguishing a "real computer" from a "calculator".
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  That is insane. Why? But then, a lot of things about the College Board are pretty nuts: It is the reason that graphing calculator companies can continue to scam the public by selling overpriced machines running at absurdly low speeds (Their most popular calculator is a 6-15MHz Z80, with 48-128K ram (but YOU, the programmer, can only access 24K): That's pathetic, and yet you can buy a chromebook (a LAPTOP capable of running the famously resource-hungry Chrome) for the same price). The Plus CE did a bit to improve this, but it's still less capable then the phone in your pocket: That is inexcusable).
  - zokier 10y ago
    > Their most popular calculator is a 6-15MHz Z80, with 48-128K ram (but YOU, the programmer, can only access 24K): That's pathetic, and yet you can buy a chromebook (a LAPTOP capable of running the famously resource-hungry Chrome) for the same price). The Plus CE did a bit to improve this, but it's still less capable then the phone in your pocket: That is inexcusable). The Nspire line isn't that bad.. It's not high-end by any means (it's still a damn calculator), but it at least got the lineup to 21st century.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Programmable calculators and computers are rather close, no? What about eCig batteries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQ6K8ariWs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQ6K8ariWs
jmiserez 10y ago
TI Voyage-200 and TI-92+ had a QWERTY keyboard, and almost the same internals as the TI-89.

spacehacker 10y ago

It is the same with questions like what counts as intelligence, what counts as alive? The boundaries shy away. In fact it is probably impossible to find simple definitions for these terms, i.e. definitions that get by without special rules for all kinds of instances which just feel more intelligent, alive or like a computer, or less. The definition is irreducible in the sense that we cannot explain our intuition without tracing back the history of our species and of the memes and neuronal firing patterns inside our brains, information that likely cannot be compressed very well. The same applies to human values. Stephen Wolfram just gave an interesting talk and Q/A session on this problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxQwpdB9wbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxQwpdB9wbg

cyberferret 10y ago

> "It counts as a real computer if it runs Doom." Haha. I remember back in the days when the benchmark for computing and graphic processing power was measured in terms of "Does it run Microsoft Flight Simulator?"

DanBC 10y ago
Also, "Is it a real PC clone?" used the "will it run MS Flight Simulator" test. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D0O_-ER3Z_gC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=flight+simulator+test+of+pc+clone&source=bl&ots=cLSFM3gAq5&sig=OQP3Wmr8_GaTPY4_QM6_lnn-oC0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizjqjl4LrQAhXpLcAKHcC3CTsQ6AEIMTAD#v=onepage&q=flight%20simulator%20test%20of%20pc%20clone&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D0O_-ER3Z_gC&pg=PA168&lp... (Bottom of 3rd column) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PjwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=flight+simulator+test+of+pc+clone&source=bl&ots=1xukhJrNgB&sig=e5cHAv6NPPmGG53gbHQus8ijiOs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizjqjl4LrQAhXpLcAKHcC3CTsQ6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=flight%20simulator%20test%20of%20pc%20clone&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PjwEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wcv9oIHOrjQC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=flight+simulator+test+of+pc+clone&source=bl&ots=BAd3pvR9fN&sig=On7xLuAn2417eKshzvpNW7YbMyo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizjqjl4LrQAhXpLcAKHcC3CTsQ6AEINTAF#v=onepage&q=flight%20simulator%20test%20of%20pc%20clone&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wcv9oIHOrjQC&pg=PA170&lp...

dashoffset 10y ago

If it can run a Turing machine simulator, then it's a real computer.

WayneBro 10y ago

It counts as a real computer if you can program it with itself. That's my bar at least.

gohrt 10y ago
Does this count? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xCd55oSgO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xCd55oSgO4

vacri 10y ago

A million headless servers would disagree :)

neilellis 10y ago
Xvfb?
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
A million headless servers can X-forward DOOM to a desktop.

bane 10y ago

The demoscene doesn't really much care for these distinctions, if it has at least a display, the scene will try to get a cube rotating on it, or some copper bars, or something.

dividuum 10y ago
Sometimes even a display isn't necessary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1f6UE27KTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1f6UE27KTo

dbarlett 10y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20061029111228/http://www.itplaysdoom.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20061029111228/http://www.itplay...