5 ms·

> Nothing, if they diluted it 'correctly', or never bothered to put the poison in there to begin with There are both high-dilutionists and low-dilutionists wit

> Nothing, if they diluted it 'correctly', or never bothered to put the poison in there to begin with There are both high-dilutionists and low-dilutionists within homeopathy.[1][2] I'm not saying you should run out and buy a bunch of homeopathic remedies or whatever, but also realize that the mainstream 'skeptic' account of homeopathy is not especially accurate. Also realize that the latest scientific research on food allergies involves homeopathic-like mithridatism, so even though the idea of a like-cures-like high dilutionist treatment isn't anywhere near a universal panacea, it does at least appear to work in certain limited cases. [1] https://www.amazon.com/History-American-Homeopathy-Academic-1820-1935-ebook/dp/B01KI63DYU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479752156&sr=8-1&keywords=academic+history+of+homeopathy https://www.amazon.com/History-American-Homeopathy-Academic-... [2] http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/202602 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/202602

tdb7893 10y ago
If they actually go through the proper channels and test their cures then I'll gladly accept them. Until that they are pretty much just a pseudoscience.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Woah, are you seriously comparing immunotherapy to homeopathy? One has no basis in reality and no known mechanism of action. The other has a solid scientific and biological foundation behind it. Nor is immunotherapy the "latest scientific research," its been around for decades. James Randi famously starts out talks swallowing an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills. He's not dead yet despite being almost 90.
- will_brown 10y ago
  I agree with him, but I don't believe he is comparing immunotherapy to homeopathy. Moreover, if you read the article it pretty much drops the use of Homeopathy for the very specific definition of like cures like and calls it like cures like pseudoscience and stated like cures like has never worked for any condition. I don't mind attacking homeopathy but once we begin using the very specific definition of like cure like and calling that basic principle pseudoscience...that is when I take issue with it because that is the exact principle immunnotherapy for allergies is based on.
- ryuker16 10y ago
  bad idea.... I wouldn't be surprised if one shady homeopathic maker just put real pills in to save cash and increase efficiency.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  > James Randi famously starts out talks swallowing an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills. And that's exactly why I posted my comment, because it's wildly irresponsible to post comments leading people to believe that they can do the same thing and come away unharmed. The fact is that if you chug a bottle of 3x diluted poison ivy oil then you're almost certainly going to die. And not because it wasn't diluted properly, because it had other ingredients, etc. Most homeopathic treatments on the market today are highly diluted. But not all. And since historically there was more of an even split between high dilutionists and low dilutionists, it's not unlikely that in the future even more low dilution homeopathic products will come on the market. So when you post shit that's going to come up in Google for the next twenty years that's implicitly encouraging folks to try some stunt that could easily get them killed, don't expect to not get called out on it.
  - nathan_f77 10y ago
    > if you chug a bottle of 3x diluted poison ivy oil then you're almost certainly going to die Haha ok, yes, you have a point there. I guess it is really dangerous to assume that all homeopathic remedies are pure water, because some of them aren't actually diluted that much. Some of them still contain poison.
- stillsut 10y ago
  > swallowing an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills If you wanted to induce a placebo effect, playing up the potency of the sugar pill would be helpful - for example saying "Do not, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, take more than two, as this can result produce DANGEROUS effects" is a lot better than going "Ehh, take more if it'll make you feel better, this stuff's completely inert anyways.". I believe we already do this in medical field: for example those big ibuprofens they give you after a trip to the ER. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the exact. same. thing. as just taking multiple over-the-counter ibuprofen pills? The underlying idea being that the patient will be satisfied the doctor is "doing something" to alleviate his pain, while not having to write risky pain killer Rx. Maybe, homeopathy works in a similar way - it gives a compelling sci-fi / witchcraft / whatever-you-fetish backstory to a sugar pill. And when your subconscious buys in, you may cure yourself. Certainly with the example of insomnia, it seems quite plausible.
will_brown 10y ago
I posted another comment but will follow up here because you are getting downvoted, unfairly I think. As you say modern medicine embraces like cures like for multiple conditions I can think of off hand, including, as you mention immunotherapy for allergies. Others I believe include anti-venom and flu vaccination. Also, the article itself is clear: many are diluted to be rendered useless and in general aren't based on science. Well there is a clear gap and what I consider an acknowledgement some of these therapies are based on science and do contain the active ingredient. In my mind that makes them not far off from vitamins, many of which if you buy off the shelf and break open will be filled with flour and other fillers. Still that is not to say the science behind vitamin supplements isn't real and there aren't some reputable companies making quality products. Now I am not encouraging deception in the marketplace, or giving peanuts to kids with peanut allergies. Though that is part of real science and modern medicine using like cures like.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  Eh I have no problem getting downvoted. I think it's unfortunate that HN is filled with folks who get their medical information from celebrity YouTube videos and then get super triggered by anyone who actually reads books, but at least I try to make the information available for anyone who wants it.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    "Books" can be just as inaccurate as celebrity YouTube videos. Being printed on dead trees doesn't guarantee accuracy or even that it's coherent. Anyone can publish any nonsense they want.
  - Oletros 10y ago
    > Also realize that the latest scientific research on food allergies involves homeopathic-like mithridatism, so even though the idea of a like-cures-like high dilutionist treatment isn't anywhere near a universal panacea, it does at least appear to work in certain limited cases. After reading this comment it seems that the books you read are very suspicious.
fsloth 10y ago
Homepathy may work as a channel to induce placebo effect. Sometimes this is enough to help. Claiming it has any other sorts of effects without scientific evidence is kooky. Even if a hypothetical scenario would actualize where it is found that some specific homeopathic drug/treatment combination is effective as medicine it would not validate the rest of the tradition in any way.
- robbiep 10y ago
  Why take bullshit that you pay large amounts of money for and ascribe the 'effect' to homeopathy when you can get placebo effect from aspirin or sugar pills? This is the weakest argument in defence of homeopathy... you don't need homeopathy to get placebo effect and so why give credence to a bunch of wackos
  - fsloth 10y ago
    I quite fail to see how my comment was defending homeopathy. Not agressively hostile does not equal acommodating...
Angostura 10y ago
Historically, there may have been some people who used high concentrations and called it homeopathy. But not today, and that's not what these labelling regulations deal with.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  I dunno, you can buy 3X diluted poison ivy oil here, which would be 1 part in 1000. I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if you chugged a bottle of this then you'd probably die: http://abchomeopathy.com/avpot.php/Rhus-t?defaultpotency=3X http://abchomeopathy.com/avpot.php/Rhus-t?defaultpotency=3X
  - Angostura 10y ago
    1 part in 1,000 would be many orders of magnitude more concentrated than the dilutions used in 'conventional' homeopathy

tdb7893 10y ago

If they actually go through the proper channels and test their cures then I'll gladly accept them. Until that they are pretty much just a pseudoscience.

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Woah, are you seriously comparing immunotherapy to homeopathy? One has no basis in reality and no known mechanism of action. The other has a solid scientific and biological foundation behind it. Nor is immunotherapy the "latest scientific research," its been around for decades. James Randi famously starts out talks swallowing an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills. He's not dead yet despite being almost 90.

will_brown 10y ago
I agree with him, but I don't believe he is comparing immunotherapy to homeopathy. Moreover, if you read the article it pretty much drops the use of Homeopathy for the very specific definition of like cures like and calls it like cures like pseudoscience and stated like cures like has never worked for any condition. I don't mind attacking homeopathy but once we begin using the very specific definition of like cure like and calling that basic principle pseudoscience...that is when I take issue with it because that is the exact principle immunnotherapy for allergies is based on.
ryuker16 10y ago
bad idea.... I wouldn't be surprised if one shady homeopathic maker just put real pills in to save cash and increase efficiency.
Alex3917 10y ago
> James Randi famously starts out talks swallowing an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills. And that's exactly why I posted my comment, because it's wildly irresponsible to post comments leading people to believe that they can do the same thing and come away unharmed. The fact is that if you chug a bottle of 3x diluted poison ivy oil then you're almost certainly going to die. And not because it wasn't diluted properly, because it had other ingredients, etc. Most homeopathic treatments on the market today are highly diluted. But not all. And since historically there was more of an even split between high dilutionists and low dilutionists, it's not unlikely that in the future even more low dilution homeopathic products will come on the market. So when you post shit that's going to come up in Google for the next twenty years that's implicitly encouraging folks to try some stunt that could easily get them killed, don't expect to not get called out on it.
- nathan_f77 10y ago
  > if you chug a bottle of 3x diluted poison ivy oil then you're almost certainly going to die Haha ok, yes, you have a point there. I guess it is really dangerous to assume that all homeopathic remedies are pure water, because some of them aren't actually diluted that much. Some of them still contain poison.
stillsut 10y ago
> swallowing an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills If you wanted to induce a placebo effect, playing up the potency of the sugar pill would be helpful - for example saying "Do not, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, take more than two, as this can result produce DANGEROUS effects" is a lot better than going "Ehh, take more if it'll make you feel better, this stuff's completely inert anyways.". I believe we already do this in medical field: for example those big ibuprofens they give you after a trip to the ER. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the exact. same. thing. as just taking multiple over-the-counter ibuprofen pills? The underlying idea being that the patient will be satisfied the doctor is "doing something" to alleviate his pain, while not having to write risky pain killer Rx. Maybe, homeopathy works in a similar way - it gives a compelling sci-fi / witchcraft / whatever-you-fetish backstory to a sugar pill. And when your subconscious buys in, you may cure yourself. Certainly with the example of insomnia, it seems quite plausible.

will_brown 10y ago

I posted another comment but will follow up here because you are getting downvoted, unfairly I think. As you say modern medicine embraces like cures like for multiple conditions I can think of off hand, including, as you mention immunotherapy for allergies. Others I believe include anti-venom and flu vaccination. Also, the article itself is clear: many are diluted to be rendered useless and in general aren't based on science. Well there is a clear gap and what I consider an acknowledgement some of these therapies are based on science and do contain the active ingredient. In my mind that makes them not far off from vitamins, many of which if you buy off the shelf and break open will be filled with flour and other fillers. Still that is not to say the science behind vitamin supplements isn't real and there aren't some reputable companies making quality products. Now I am not encouraging deception in the marketplace, or giving peanuts to kids with peanut allergies. Though that is part of real science and modern medicine using like cures like.

Alex3917 10y ago
Eh I have no problem getting downvoted. I think it's unfortunate that HN is filled with folks who get their medical information from celebrity YouTube videos and then get super triggered by anyone who actually reads books, but at least I try to make the information available for anyone who wants it.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  "Books" can be just as inaccurate as celebrity YouTube videos. Being printed on dead trees doesn't guarantee accuracy or even that it's coherent. Anyone can publish any nonsense they want.
- Oletros 10y ago
  > Also realize that the latest scientific research on food allergies involves homeopathic-like mithridatism, so even though the idea of a like-cures-like high dilutionist treatment isn't anywhere near a universal panacea, it does at least appear to work in certain limited cases. After reading this comment it seems that the books you read are very suspicious.

fsloth 10y ago

Homepathy may work as a channel to induce placebo effect. Sometimes this is enough to help. Claiming it has any other sorts of effects without scientific evidence is kooky. Even if a hypothetical scenario would actualize where it is found that some specific homeopathic drug/treatment combination is effective as medicine it would not validate the rest of the tradition in any way.

robbiep 10y ago
Why take bullshit that you pay large amounts of money for and ascribe the 'effect' to homeopathy when you can get placebo effect from aspirin or sugar pills? This is the weakest argument in defence of homeopathy... you don't need homeopathy to get placebo effect and so why give credence to a bunch of wackos
- fsloth 10y ago
  I quite fail to see how my comment was defending homeopathy. Not agressively hostile does not equal acommodating...

Angostura 10y ago

Historically, there may have been some people who used high concentrations and called it homeopathy. But not today, and that's not what these labelling regulations deal with.

Alex3917 10y ago
I dunno, you can buy 3X diluted poison ivy oil here, which would be 1 part in 1000. I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if you chugged a bottle of this then you'd probably die: http://abchomeopathy.com/avpot.php/Rhus-t?defaultpotency=3X http://abchomeopathy.com/avpot.php/Rhus-t?defaultpotency=3X
- Angostura 10y ago
  1 part in 1,000 would be many orders of magnitude more concentrated than the dilutions used in 'conventional' homeopathy