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I'm happy for this guy, and there are really good tips in here for managing an application funnel. Like others, I'm surprised offers north of 110 are possible

by krosaen 10y ago

I'm happy for this guy, and there are really good tips in here for managing an application funnel. Like others, I'm surprised offers north of 110 are possible given his experience, and can't help but bristle a bit at him being a self described "full stack" developer when it appears he's a front end developer (does rails really count as being a backend engineer?). But he worked exceptionally hard at the process (guessing having applied to 10x the places a typical engineering grad does?), and also has a strong background in business from a reputable university. For some jobs, especially at startups, knowing how to understand the business problem and deliver results can be really important. The challenge isn't the tech, it's combining just enough tech [1] with essentially being a product manager too. [1] learning that "just enough tech" is not easy, and it's clear he worked hard to master a lot of material. It's just that many of us have been working that hard for many years and likely have more expertise / ability to learn new tech fast than can be gained by anyone in the course of a few months or a year; hence the initial surprise

sfaf 10y ago
Why doesn't rails count as a backend engineer? Would you also not count someone who works with Django as a backend engineer?
- krosaen 10y ago
  I would definitely distinguish between html / css / javascript and server side application code, be it in ruby or python, I just didn't think working on the server side application logic completed the "full stack". To me full stack means you are into the systems a bit too and would be capable of setting up the stack itself (and perhaps enhancing it, or setting up custom batch systems), not just working effectively within a larger space provided by the application frameworks. But perhaps I just have the terminology wrong? Full stack developer = someone who works across the application stack, and I'm thinking more of "systems" or "backend" engineer?
  - sfaf 10y ago
    Yes, I do feel you have the terminology wrong. I consider myself full stack and I work with Rails, Django, etc. I have interviewed with many companies with the title "Full Stack Developer" and most of them have not expected the type of experience you are talking about. I think you are talking essentially about a Systems roles. When you are full stack there's usually an assumption that you are "better" on one side of the stack and won't be strong at everything. So a back-end focused full stack developer would be better at the things you are talking about while a front-end focused full stack developer would be much stronger in Javascript / CSS. The main thing is that you understand how an app works end to end and can contribute / fix bugs across the stack.
    - krosaen 10y ago
      Cool, thanks.
  - talmand 10y ago
    From my experience I would say that what you are describing at the end there is a full-stack developer. It's someone that works across the application stack, not setting it up to make use of it. Although many probably can, it's just likely not their responsibility. Of course, all bets are off if it's a small shop.
  - walshemj 10y ago
    Id say some one who is comfortable working at all the layers 1-7 ie be able to design spec and set up (or supervise the set up) of a small office network
  - nathan_f77 10y ago
    I think you could describe that as full-stack + devops. Full-stack generally just means backend + front-end.
  - mordocai 10y ago
    I call myself full stack and mean what you mean. I typically have to explain that when I say full stack I mean "literally full stack" as in I have a working level of knowledge with every piece of the system from hardware/kernel to networking to databases to application. I do agree that when people use the term though they just mean "I can code in a backend and a frontend language".
walshemj 10y ago
yeh my test for a full stack dev would be name the 8th layer of the OSI stack and the 5th layer of TCP/IP :-) And part of me thinks that a full stack dev should be able to use a soldering iron.
FT_intern 10y ago
"Full stack" means front end + some work with an ORM to me

by krosaen 10y ago

sfaf 10y ago

Why doesn't rails count as a backend engineer? Would you also not count someone who works with Django as a backend engineer?

krosaen 10y ago
I would definitely distinguish between html / css / javascript and server side application code, be it in ruby or python, I just didn't think working on the server side application logic completed the "full stack". To me full stack means you are into the systems a bit too and would be capable of setting up the stack itself (and perhaps enhancing it, or setting up custom batch systems), not just working effectively within a larger space provided by the application frameworks. But perhaps I just have the terminology wrong? Full stack developer = someone who works across the application stack, and I'm thinking more of "systems" or "backend" engineer?
- sfaf 10y ago
  Yes, I do feel you have the terminology wrong. I consider myself full stack and I work with Rails, Django, etc. I have interviewed with many companies with the title "Full Stack Developer" and most of them have not expected the type of experience you are talking about. I think you are talking essentially about a Systems roles. When you are full stack there's usually an assumption that you are "better" on one side of the stack and won't be strong at everything. So a back-end focused full stack developer would be better at the things you are talking about while a front-end focused full stack developer would be much stronger in Javascript / CSS. The main thing is that you understand how an app works end to end and can contribute / fix bugs across the stack.
  - krosaen 10y ago
    Cool, thanks.
- talmand 10y ago
  From my experience I would say that what you are describing at the end there is a full-stack developer. It's someone that works across the application stack, not setting it up to make use of it. Although many probably can, it's just likely not their responsibility. Of course, all bets are off if it's a small shop.
- walshemj 10y ago
  Id say some one who is comfortable working at all the layers 1-7 ie be able to design spec and set up (or supervise the set up) of a small office network
- nathan_f77 10y ago
  I think you could describe that as full-stack + devops. Full-stack generally just means backend + front-end.
- mordocai 10y ago
  I call myself full stack and mean what you mean. I typically have to explain that when I say full stack I mean "literally full stack" as in I have a working level of knowledge with every piece of the system from hardware/kernel to networking to databases to application. I do agree that when people use the term though they just mean "I can code in a backend and a frontend language".

walshemj 10y ago

yeh my test for a full stack dev would be name the 8th layer of the OSI stack and the 5th layer of TCP/IP :-) And part of me thinks that a full stack dev should be able to use a soldering iron.

FT_intern 10y ago

"Full stack" means front end + some work with an ORM to me