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I agree; all those things were added to the bread to make it better --- it keeps longer, is cheaper to make, maintains its nutritional value, etc. It's just th

I agree; all those things were added to the bread to make it better --- it keeps longer, is cheaper to make, maintains its nutritional value, etc. It's just that a lot of us these days have different values than the people who designed the bread (and a lot of the people who continue to buy the bread), which means that what we think makes good bread is not the same thing as what they think makes good bread.

TeMPOraL 10y ago
That's another point. A lot of those nasty bad no-good "chemicals" added to food are improvements that ensure the food keeps longer, is tastier, has more nutritional value, etc. I really hate this assumption it's some big evil conspiracy out to poison people through food. It isn't. People used to be very happy about those additions in the past, when they could relate to more "natural" food and its problems. > It's just that a lot of us these days have different values than the people who designed the bread (and a lot of the people who continue to buy the bread), which means that what we think makes good bread is not the same thing as what they think makes good bread. That's a fine point, but then again a lot of us these days have the same values as those who designed the bread. Why are we being pushed so hard to reject them, with arguments mostly bordering on chemophobia?
- nemo44x 10y ago
  Why do you assume others think there is an "evil conspiracy"? Of course there isn't. Food is a business and profits will be put ahead of nutrition. Look, I like the fact that people don't starve. That poor people can get the nutrients and vitamins they need. Everything in the industrial food revolution was designed to make food cheaper for consumers. But there's a cost to that too. And early onset diabetes, heart failure for people in their 40's and other health issues are only part of the price. It's not chemophobia - at least not for me. It's the breaking of the marketing we've been sold that cooking is hard, that cooking is very time consuming and that prepared industrialized food is just as good for you. As for the bread example, it isn't bread. And it could only be labeled bread after these manufactured lobbied government and the FDA in the 1940's to allow it to be called bread. Yeah, there's a lot of snobbery around slow food and natural food. A lot of that is class distinction I assume and it's annoying. But I don't think you need to buy that kind of stuff. Get the vegetables that aren't organic. Buy meat that isn't "free range". But by all means buy quality ingredients and learn to cook for yourself a couple meals a week. >People used to be very happy about those additions in the past, when they could relate to more "natural" food and its problems. This makes no sense at all. People were happy for the convenience and sold the lie that cooking is hard and a waste of time when you can just buy this processed food and eat it right now.
- david-given 10y ago
  > That's a fine point, but then again a lot of us these days have the same values as those who designed the bread. Why are we being pushed so hard to reject them, with arguments mostly bordering on chemophobia? Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I think the stuff's important to have. The fact that nutritious, long-lasting bread of unprecedented quality is so astonishingly cheap and ubiquitous is a miracle of the modern age. My personal theory is that it's a combination of conspicuous consumption ("but supermarket bread is for poor people"), plus a deliberate attempt to push more expensive products with higher profit margins --- mass produced bread is now so cheap that the margins must be tiny. The cheapest loaf of Chorleywood Process bread from Tesco (one of the big UK supermarkets) is £0.40, which is about 50 US cents: http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258742688 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258742688 Meanwhile, go upmarket to the equivalent instore bakery loaf, and you're spending a pound: http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=255809172 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=255809172 That's baked from frozen dough in the supermarket itself rather than cooked at a central bakery, which is going to legitimately push the price up, but it's still over twice the price for what is nutritionally the same stuff (compare the two tables above). Even the ingredients lists are almost identical. I think it's still Chorleywood Process, too, although probably from a different batch of dough... (I'm a bread junkie. I like nice bread, and am willing to pay for it; and you know what? Those one pound loaves above are pretty good. I wouldn't buy the prepackaged loaves, though; they've been sliced, and nothing ruins a loaf more than preslicing it. One day I want to see a loaf of really cheap supermarket bread, unsliced, straight out of the oven. I suspect it would be pretty good.) (Chorleywood Process, BTW: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13670278 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13670278)
nemo44x 10y ago
Look at what is inside it and what it does to you and how it is manufactured. Look at a load of Wonder Bread. It used refined white flour with no bran or germ - the healthy parts. Why would they do this? Because it gives the bread a longer shelf life - what you consider a feature. You've sacrificed any bit of nutrition so it keeps on the shelf longer. Sugar is in it. Sugar. In bread. As if the white flour starch isn't bad enough for you as it turns into sugar but then actual sugar is added. No wonder diabetes is such a problem. Where's the fiber? Well, that's added later and in measly amounts so it can actually be called "bread". There is hardly any nutrition in this bread. And you admitted you didn't even know that. It was designed to be profitable - not in any way be nutritious. "Make it better" - for who? The 4 years olds with diabetes?
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  You know that if you look for a bread recipe on-line, you'll find sugar as one of the ingredients? It's kind of used to make a normal bread. I know "bread" is a broad term and some people swear by the dark "tastes like dried grain with glue" varieties. But others don't. Personally, I prefer "ISO standard" white bread. Not all food choices are made to optimize for perceived health value. Some are also made for taste.
  - nemo44x 10y ago
    You are either a sadly ignorant person or a troll. Possibly both.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

That's another point. A lot of those nasty bad no-good "chemicals" added to food are improvements that ensure the food keeps longer, is tastier, has more nutritional value, etc. I really hate this assumption it's some big evil conspiracy out to poison people through food. It isn't. People used to be very happy about those additions in the past, when they could relate to more "natural" food and its problems. > It's just that a lot of us these days have different values than the people who designed the bread (and a lot of the people who continue to buy the bread), which means that what we think makes good bread is not the same thing as what they think makes good bread. That's a fine point, but then again a lot of us these days have the same values as those who designed the bread. Why are we being pushed so hard to reject them, with arguments mostly bordering on chemophobia?

nemo44x 10y ago
Why do you assume others think there is an "evil conspiracy"? Of course there isn't. Food is a business and profits will be put ahead of nutrition. Look, I like the fact that people don't starve. That poor people can get the nutrients and vitamins they need. Everything in the industrial food revolution was designed to make food cheaper for consumers. But there's a cost to that too. And early onset diabetes, heart failure for people in their 40's and other health issues are only part of the price. It's not chemophobia - at least not for me. It's the breaking of the marketing we've been sold that cooking is hard, that cooking is very time consuming and that prepared industrialized food is just as good for you. As for the bread example, it isn't bread. And it could only be labeled bread after these manufactured lobbied government and the FDA in the 1940's to allow it to be called bread. Yeah, there's a lot of snobbery around slow food and natural food. A lot of that is class distinction I assume and it's annoying. But I don't think you need to buy that kind of stuff. Get the vegetables that aren't organic. Buy meat that isn't "free range". But by all means buy quality ingredients and learn to cook for yourself a couple meals a week. >People used to be very happy about those additions in the past, when they could relate to more "natural" food and its problems. This makes no sense at all. People were happy for the convenience and sold the lie that cooking is hard and a waste of time when you can just buy this processed food and eat it right now.
david-given 10y ago
> That's a fine point, but then again a lot of us these days have the same values as those who designed the bread. Why are we being pushed so hard to reject them, with arguments mostly bordering on chemophobia? Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I think the stuff's important to have. The fact that nutritious, long-lasting bread of unprecedented quality is so astonishingly cheap and ubiquitous is a miracle of the modern age. My personal theory is that it's a combination of conspicuous consumption ("but supermarket bread is for poor people"), plus a deliberate attempt to push more expensive products with higher profit margins --- mass produced bread is now so cheap that the margins must be tiny. The cheapest loaf of Chorleywood Process bread from Tesco (one of the big UK supermarkets) is £0.40, which is about 50 US cents: http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258742688 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=258742688 Meanwhile, go upmarket to the equivalent instore bakery loaf, and you're spending a pound: http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=255809172 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=255809172 That's baked from frozen dough in the supermarket itself rather than cooked at a central bakery, which is going to legitimately push the price up, but it's still over twice the price for what is nutritionally the same stuff (compare the two tables above). Even the ingredients lists are almost identical. I think it's still Chorleywood Process, too, although probably from a different batch of dough... (I'm a bread junkie. I like nice bread, and am willing to pay for it; and you know what? Those one pound loaves above are pretty good. I wouldn't buy the prepackaged loaves, though; they've been sliced, and nothing ruins a loaf more than preslicing it. One day I want to see a loaf of really cheap supermarket bread, unsliced, straight out of the oven. I suspect it would be pretty good.) (Chorleywood Process, BTW: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13670278 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-13670278)

nemo44x 10y ago

Look at what is inside it and what it does to you and how it is manufactured. Look at a load of Wonder Bread. It used refined white flour with no bran or germ - the healthy parts. Why would they do this? Because it gives the bread a longer shelf life - what you consider a feature. You've sacrificed any bit of nutrition so it keeps on the shelf longer. Sugar is in it. Sugar. In bread. As if the white flour starch isn't bad enough for you as it turns into sugar but then actual sugar is added. No wonder diabetes is such a problem. Where's the fiber? Well, that's added later and in measly amounts so it can actually be called "bread". There is hardly any nutrition in this bread. And you admitted you didn't even know that. It was designed to be profitable - not in any way be nutritious. "Make it better" - for who? The 4 years olds with diabetes?

TeMPOraL 10y ago
You know that if you look for a bread recipe on-line, you'll find sugar as one of the ingredients? It's kind of used to make a normal bread. I know "bread" is a broad term and some people swear by the dark "tastes like dried grain with glue" varieties. But others don't. Personally, I prefer "ISO standard" white bread. Not all food choices are made to optimize for perceived health value. Some are also made for taste.
- nemo44x 10y ago
  You are either a sadly ignorant person or a troll. Possibly both.