4 ms·

SARs only apply to suspicious activity. CTRs are what your bank has to file for every transaction over $10000. Also, it's all the Dept. of Treasury. The IRS is

SARs only apply to suspicious activity. CTRs are what your bank has to file for every transaction over $10000. Also, it's all the Dept. of Treasury. The IRS is essentially the collection agency of the Dept. of Treasury. It's listed as a bureau on the U.S. Treasury's website. https://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/bureaus/Pages/default.aspx https://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/bure...

mhluongo 10y ago
My point stands. Coinbase already has bank-level scrutiny, both directly and from its banking partners ("know your customer's customer"). I completely agree that anonymity in finance is at odds with many of the government's methods to enforce taxation, and that this is only the beginning. But Coinbase has been the white knight in this space in the US dealing with the regulations, and I don't think they're naive to push back on this. It might be a losing battle over the next decade, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile cause today.
- ryanackley 10y ago
  If your point is that it has a bank's level of scrutiny, then no it clearly does not stand. I mean isn't that the point of the government request? A bank's level of scrutiny would mean the government could reasonably guess if you are holding out on taxes which is clearly not the case here. Does the IRS regularly subpoena Chase and BofA's customer records. No, because there is no need. Thanks to the CTRs, they can crunch the numbers and figure out if the amount you paid on your taxes is suspiciously low. Sure, it's a worthwhile cause. I wish them luck because Congress and the Courts have consistently torn down financial privacy over the last 30-40 years.
  - mhluongo 10y ago
    To your point about SARs / CTRs- SARs at banks are usually triggered by cash deposits and withdrawals at a much lower level, and every bitcoin transaction is roughly equivalent to a cash transaction. Thus "bank-level scrutiny". > I mean isn't that the point of the government request? It's not clear to me whether they actually need this at all, considering Coinbase's existing reporting requirements. It's common enough from other branches to make overreaching requests to set a precedent (eg the DoJ / Apple iPhone) so I wouldn't just assume it's business as usual.
    - ryanackley 10y ago
      You're fixated on SARs being comparable to CTRs and they just aren't. First, a SAR is only for suspicious activity and it's relatively uncommon, a CTR is not optional and very common. If a SAR is being filled out, it's after trying to get in touch with the person to better understand their business and why various transactions look suspicious. It's not undertaken lightly. It's not a routine filing whereas CTR's are.
      - wheelerwj 10y ago
        > SAR is only for suspicious activity and it's relatively uncommon lol, just. stop. you obviously have no experience with this type of regulation (or at least you better hopeyou don't).
andrewpi 10y ago
>SARs only apply to suspicious activity. CTRs are what your bank has to file for every transaction over $10000. For every currency transaction, not every transaction. (if you deposit a check for $50,000, that doesn't get reported unless the bank thinks something about the transaction is suspicious) Are bitcoins classified as currency for the purposes of CTR reports?
- wheelerwj 10y ago
  No, transferring 10k worth of bit Coin doesn't warrant a CTR, only if it's bought or sold using cash.

mhluongo 10y ago

My point stands. Coinbase already has bank-level scrutiny, both directly and from its banking partners ("know your customer's customer"). I completely agree that anonymity in finance is at odds with many of the government's methods to enforce taxation, and that this is only the beginning. But Coinbase has been the white knight in this space in the US dealing with the regulations, and I don't think they're naive to push back on this. It might be a losing battle over the next decade, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile cause today.

ryanackley 10y ago
If your point is that it has a bank's level of scrutiny, then no it clearly does not stand. I mean isn't that the point of the government request? A bank's level of scrutiny would mean the government could reasonably guess if you are holding out on taxes which is clearly not the case here. Does the IRS regularly subpoena Chase and BofA's customer records. No, because there is no need. Thanks to the CTRs, they can crunch the numbers and figure out if the amount you paid on your taxes is suspiciously low. Sure, it's a worthwhile cause. I wish them luck because Congress and the Courts have consistently torn down financial privacy over the last 30-40 years.
- mhluongo 10y ago
  To your point about SARs / CTRs- SARs at banks are usually triggered by cash deposits and withdrawals at a much lower level, and every bitcoin transaction is roughly equivalent to a cash transaction. Thus "bank-level scrutiny". > I mean isn't that the point of the government request? It's not clear to me whether they actually need this at all, considering Coinbase's existing reporting requirements. It's common enough from other branches to make overreaching requests to set a precedent (eg the DoJ / Apple iPhone) so I wouldn't just assume it's business as usual.
  - ryanackley 10y ago
    You're fixated on SARs being comparable to CTRs and they just aren't. First, a SAR is only for suspicious activity and it's relatively uncommon, a CTR is not optional and very common. If a SAR is being filled out, it's after trying to get in touch with the person to better understand their business and why various transactions look suspicious. It's not undertaken lightly. It's not a routine filing whereas CTR's are.
    - wheelerwj 10y ago
      > SAR is only for suspicious activity and it's relatively uncommon lol, just. stop. you obviously have no experience with this type of regulation (or at least you better hopeyou don't).

andrewpi 10y ago

>SARs only apply to suspicious activity. CTRs are what your bank has to file for every transaction over $10000. For every currency transaction, not every transaction. (if you deposit a check for $50,000, that doesn't get reported unless the bank thinks something about the transaction is suspicious) Are bitcoins classified as currency for the purposes of CTR reports?

wheelerwj 10y ago
No, transferring 10k worth of bit Coin doesn't warrant a CTR, only if it's bought or sold using cash.