6 ms·

> I wouldn't say I was a 303/808 connoisseur I would, I own a real TB-303 (as well as a TR-808 and a TR-909), and this suffers from the same problems that all

by louthy 10y ago

> I wouldn't say I was a 303/808 connoisseur I would, I own a real TB-303 (as well as a TR-808 and a TR-909), and this suffers from the same problems that all emulations suffer (even Roland's own TR-3 and TR-03): the sound is really 'static'; real 303s have an instability in the sound that gives them a nice natural vibrato, which at the extremes (resonance full, and sweeping the cut-off), causes mini-ripples of sound that give the 303 that sound. Have a listen to this to see what I mean (try to avoid the Roland shills with their "it's just as good" opinion) [1] It's pretty much the same with all emulations of analogue gear. I am yet to hear any plugin or emulation come close to the sound of analogue. The closest I've experienced to-date Uhe Diva, but even that doesn't have the liveliness of the real deal. [1] https://youtu.be/4lhXeTGMo2c?t=796 https://youtu.be/4lhXeTGMo2c?t=796

beedogs 10y ago
Roland's reissues are pretty dull and lifeless compared to the real thing. The x0xb0x and possibly the TT-303 are the only two 303 clones I've heard that get close, probably due to the fact they're close copies of the original's analog circuitry. But even they don't quite get there. That's why the 303 still commands such a high price, even after Roland's ACB reissues. The 909 and 808 are a lot easier to clone.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  I thought x0xb0x did a single blind test and they were indistinguishable? http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/samples.html http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/samples.html
dharma1 10y ago
I agree. It's the instabilities and nonlinearities in analog audio that give it character. Now whether that's worth emulating, or even noticeable by most people, I'm not sure. But I'm buying all analog, and mostly VCO synths
- problems 10y ago
  Curious if you'd notice similar from circuit emulator synths like Diva: https://www.u-he.com/cms/diva https://www.u-he.com/cms/diva
  - louthy 10y ago
    The Diva is good, but doesn't sound like an analogue synth.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Where can I find information on simulating circuits -- the underlying algorithms and models? Does it take in account factors like temperature (I hope so)?
    - dharma1 10y ago
      Here's a good place to start - the blog of Urs, the guy who made Diva. https://urs.silvrback.com/ https://urs.silvrback.com/ Andy Cytomic is also doing good work on analogue filter modeling https://cytomic.com/index.php?q=technical-papers https://cytomic.com/index.php?q=technical-papers
      - Hydraulix989 10y ago
        This isn't analogue modelling though -- you're just using KVL/KCL to derive the transfer function H(w) and applying the same transfer function as a digital filter. It's literally the first thing I would do if I wanted to come up with something that sounded the least bit like the real thing. I was using my own FIR derivation of a third-order low-pass Butterworth filter to do software synthesis in 2008 while I was in high school. This is truly basic stuff. Real analogue modelling has things like noise, hysteresis, and a dependence on such broad factors as temperature and even EM fields.
        Hydraulix989 10y ago
        I guess I should have done my own digging. THIS (and really anything Spice does) is REAL analog modelling: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f03a/310c40a48be62206ce5ff1352bd61e88599e.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f03a/310c40a48be62206ce5ff1...
a1k0n 10y ago
They're also impossible to keep in tune, sound wildly different with small changes in temperature, and have a really terrible signal to noise ratio.
- louthy 10y ago
  DCO synths don't have tuning problems, modern VCO synths (like the OB-6) have built-in tuning circuits. Even on the older gear that needs manual tuning (like my SH-101), it doesn't take too long to tune. If a synth is drifting wildly, then it's more likely to be a fault/time for reconditioning. In terms of signal-to-noise, well yeah they're all noisy, but not terribly if you do your gain staging properly, and gate anything that's excessively noisy. Actually the noise is part of the character of the imperfection. Look at emulations of classic gear, and they're all digitally putting the noise back in.
joshwcomeau 10y ago
You're right, but that doesn't make this any less awesome :) To me, it's a demo of what's capable with the Web Audio API. It's _amazing_, because with a URL you can share a drum machine equal to any of the other emulators you'd need to buy (or, at least, download).
kowdermeister 10y ago
> I am yet to hear any plugin or emulation come close to the sound of analogue. Check this, it's a Moog Minimoog Model D recration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPu2Su-V9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPu2Su-V9Q insanely close to the original, I've played with the demo.
- tudorw 10y ago
  It's good for sure, listen to the last sliding notes on the funk riff, the analog is much more characteristic, the smooth gradient is perceptible, it's the interaction of analog harmonics, as another post mentioned it's often at the extremes that the most interesting sounds emerge, these I imagine are areas where interesting sonic dynamics will occur. All music making stuff is cool, from gong to modular analog through string box bass and digital tricks, we are lucky to have such tools to hand, the original 303 cost a lot, they still do...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ryan-allen 10y ago
TB03 is the closest I've seen that sounds most like the original, but yeah, not the same. I bought a Moog Mother 32 instead :) Can't beat the real analog deal. Everything on it sounds amazing!

by louthy 10y ago

beedogs 10y ago

Roland's reissues are pretty dull and lifeless compared to the real thing. The x0xb0x and possibly the TT-303 are the only two 303 clones I've heard that get close, probably due to the fact they're close copies of the original's analog circuitry. But even they don't quite get there. That's why the 303 still commands such a high price, even after Roland's ACB reissues. The 909 and 808 are a lot easier to clone.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
I thought x0xb0x did a single blind test and they were indistinguishable? http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/samples.html http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/samples.html

dharma1 10y ago

I agree. It's the instabilities and nonlinearities in analog audio that give it character. Now whether that's worth emulating, or even noticeable by most people, I'm not sure. But I'm buying all analog, and mostly VCO synths

problems 10y ago
Curious if you'd notice similar from circuit emulator synths like Diva: https://www.u-he.com/cms/diva https://www.u-he.com/cms/diva
- louthy 10y ago
  The Diva is good, but doesn't sound like an analogue synth.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Where can I find information on simulating circuits -- the underlying algorithms and models? Does it take in account factors like temperature (I hope so)?
  - dharma1 10y ago
    Here's a good place to start - the blog of Urs, the guy who made Diva. https://urs.silvrback.com/ https://urs.silvrback.com/ Andy Cytomic is also doing good work on analogue filter modeling https://cytomic.com/index.php?q=technical-papers https://cytomic.com/index.php?q=technical-papers
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      This isn't analogue modelling though -- you're just using KVL/KCL to derive the transfer function H(w) and applying the same transfer function as a digital filter. It's literally the first thing I would do if I wanted to come up with something that sounded the least bit like the real thing. I was using my own FIR derivation of a third-order low-pass Butterworth filter to do software synthesis in 2008 while I was in high school. This is truly basic stuff. Real analogue modelling has things like noise, hysteresis, and a dependence on such broad factors as temperature and even EM fields.
      - Hydraulix989 10y ago
        I guess I should have done my own digging. THIS (and really anything Spice does) is REAL analog modelling: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f03a/310c40a48be62206ce5ff1352bd61e88599e.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f03a/310c40a48be62206ce5ff1...

a1k0n 10y ago

They're also impossible to keep in tune, sound wildly different with small changes in temperature, and have a really terrible signal to noise ratio.

louthy 10y ago
DCO synths don't have tuning problems, modern VCO synths (like the OB-6) have built-in tuning circuits. Even on the older gear that needs manual tuning (like my SH-101), it doesn't take too long to tune. If a synth is drifting wildly, then it's more likely to be a fault/time for reconditioning. In terms of signal-to-noise, well yeah they're all noisy, but not terribly if you do your gain staging properly, and gate anything that's excessively noisy. Actually the noise is part of the character of the imperfection. Look at emulations of classic gear, and they're all digitally putting the noise back in.

joshwcomeau 10y ago

You're right, but that doesn't make this any less awesome :) To me, it's a demo of what's capable with the Web Audio API. It's _amazing_, because with a URL you can share a drum machine equal to any of the other emulators you'd need to buy (or, at least, download).

kowdermeister 10y ago

> I am yet to hear any plugin or emulation come close to the sound of analogue. Check this, it's a Moog Minimoog Model D recration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPu2Su-V9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPu2Su-V9Q insanely close to the original, I've played with the demo.

tudorw 10y ago
It's good for sure, listen to the last sliding notes on the funk riff, the analog is much more characteristic, the smooth gradient is perceptible, it's the interaction of analog harmonics, as another post mentioned it's often at the extremes that the most interesting sounds emerge, these I imagine are areas where interesting sonic dynamics will occur. All music making stuff is cool, from gong to modular analog through string box bass and digital tricks, we are lucky to have such tools to hand, the original 303 cost a lot, they still do...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

ryan-allen 10y ago

TB03 is the closest I've seen that sounds most like the original, but yeah, not the same. I bought a Moog Mother 32 instead :) Can't beat the real analog deal. Everything on it sounds amazing!