3 ms·

If there was an equally qualified man and woman- choosing the man over the woman because he is a man would be considered sexism. Choosing the woman over the man

If there was an equally qualified man and woman- choosing the man over the woman because he is a man would be considered sexism. Choosing the woman over the man because she is a woman is considered progress. Asians are way over represented at Microsoft vs our country. We need to boost the white percentage as well. To me, race "diversity" is a foolish kind of diversity, because of how shallow it is. I don't think skin color makes you a different person, so I don't really think that more people of different colors in a company makes anything better. And I guess that makes me the bigoted one?

kevingadd 10y ago
If it's shallow then wouldn't that imply it has no bearing on whether the person is qualified, and the pools of candidates of a certain race or gender are all equally qualified? If so, then why are diversity quotas a problem?
- nightski 10y ago
  Just because race or gender has no factor in whether a candidate is qualified does not mean that qualified candidates are equally represented among races and/or genders.
  - kevingadd 10y ago
    Yes, but the GP suggested that weighting based on race or gender is a problem, which implies that qualified candidates are unequally represented. Why would this be so? Is there evidence to support it? They also suggested that the white percentage needs to be 'boosted', because there are too many asians? Why would that be? What are the correct numbers?
    - tuna-piano 10y ago
      I think it's pretty clear that qualified candidates are not equally represented. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, socioeconomic, educational, etc. But take a look at the SAT scores by race, or chosen academic majors in college. I'm on mobile with bad internet so I can't link to actual figures now. And my (sarcastic) logic for white percentage boosting is the same as Microsoft's black percentage boosting goal. Asians are significantly over represented at Microsoft (and most of the big tech cos) vs our US population. Microsoft wants to increase the black/Hispanic employee percentage to get more in line with the US distribution. They should also want to do the same with whites, which leaves the Asians set to be decreased significantly.
      - kevingadd 10y ago
        I see, that makes sense. If you're certain that qualified candidates are not equally represented, are you certain that lowering the asian percentage and raising the white percentage wouldn't lower the overall skill level of the Microsoft workforce? How do you suggest to counteract this effect?
- dogma1138 10y ago
  If you have a pool of candidates that are equally qualified and you prefer hiring some one based on their gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity that is discrimination regardless of how you look at it. When you tie financial incentive you are even more likely to create discrimination since if a candidate is merely qualified but not the most qualified out of a pool you are likely to choose them in order to meet the hiring policy especially if your income is dependant on it. Lastly I've seen some diversity goals in some companies and sorry but these goals are unrealistic, when women make up 15-18% of the students in computer science, engineering and similar degrees there is absolutly no way to meet a goal of 50%/50% split between men and women as engineers without drastically reducing the diversity in other companies. If the 30%+ goal for women in MSFT is going to be cross department MSFT would effectively have to poach women from other companies and hire across multiple graduation years which either would leave a larger percentage of male engineers unemployed or make other companies less diverse. If women were 50% of STEM graduates and we still had an issue of diversity in tech that would be a different story, but currently most large tech companies have a higher percentage of women including in engineering than the national average in their relevant degrees and vocational education. Women make up less than 20% of most STEM programmes especially those related to computer sciences, women make up less than 20% of most coding bootcamps, so exactly where would these magic diversity quotas are supposed to come from?
  - bigtex 10y ago
    Stop with the common sense. This is an issue where logic and facts go out the window when an agenda is at hand. I want to know is why doesn't Microsoft start up their own coding school or something if this is such a big problem.
foolrush 10y ago
> If there was an equally qualified man and woman- choosing the man over the woman because he is a man would be considered sexism. Bzzt. The only folks that believe this rubbish believe that all things are equal. This is false. The cultural framework and machinations have already greatly tilted the field in favor of the male, and in particular the white male. So if you believe this suddenly is sexism, you may want to check the current sociological landscape.
- foolrush 10y ago
  What would be fascinating is if one's down voting were coupled with their identified gender and race.
  - ihsw 10y ago
    The sociological landscape is irrelevant and employers pandering to liberal nitwits is the height of stupidity. Frankly I think affirmative action is disgusting and it devalues us all. Progressive extremism truly is a cancer upon the tech industry (and humanity as a whole) and I hope the Western world gets its collective head out of its behind, no other section of the world buys into this garbage and for good reason -- it's empty gestures that serve only to stave off the wrath of violent SJWs that seek to pervert society with their backwards ideals. It's a policy borne of fear, fear of being smeared on Twitter and other leftist propaganda outlets. There is no other rationale.
  - flukus 10y ago
    So you can dismiss arguments based on the gender and race of those making them?
barumrho 10y ago
There is currently a bias of preferring men over women. I think a policy like this can help you be more conscious about the candidates' actual qualification. Over-representation of a minority race isn't an issue. The goal isn't to have a workforce that matches racial distribution of the whole country; it is to have more diversity.

kevingadd 10y ago

If it's shallow then wouldn't that imply it has no bearing on whether the person is qualified, and the pools of candidates of a certain race or gender are all equally qualified? If so, then why are diversity quotas a problem?

nightski 10y ago
Just because race or gender has no factor in whether a candidate is qualified does not mean that qualified candidates are equally represented among races and/or genders.
- kevingadd 10y ago
  Yes, but the GP suggested that weighting based on race or gender is a problem, which implies that qualified candidates are unequally represented. Why would this be so? Is there evidence to support it? They also suggested that the white percentage needs to be 'boosted', because there are too many asians? Why would that be? What are the correct numbers?
  - tuna-piano 10y ago
    I think it's pretty clear that qualified candidates are not equally represented. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, socioeconomic, educational, etc. But take a look at the SAT scores by race, or chosen academic majors in college. I'm on mobile with bad internet so I can't link to actual figures now. And my (sarcastic) logic for white percentage boosting is the same as Microsoft's black percentage boosting goal. Asians are significantly over represented at Microsoft (and most of the big tech cos) vs our US population. Microsoft wants to increase the black/Hispanic employee percentage to get more in line with the US distribution. They should also want to do the same with whites, which leaves the Asians set to be decreased significantly.
    - kevingadd 10y ago
      I see, that makes sense. If you're certain that qualified candidates are not equally represented, are you certain that lowering the asian percentage and raising the white percentage wouldn't lower the overall skill level of the Microsoft workforce? How do you suggest to counteract this effect?
dogma1138 10y ago
If you have a pool of candidates that are equally qualified and you prefer hiring some one based on their gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity that is discrimination regardless of how you look at it. When you tie financial incentive you are even more likely to create discrimination since if a candidate is merely qualified but not the most qualified out of a pool you are likely to choose them in order to meet the hiring policy especially if your income is dependant on it. Lastly I've seen some diversity goals in some companies and sorry but these goals are unrealistic, when women make up 15-18% of the students in computer science, engineering and similar degrees there is absolutly no way to meet a goal of 50%/50% split between men and women as engineers without drastically reducing the diversity in other companies. If the 30%+ goal for women in MSFT is going to be cross department MSFT would effectively have to poach women from other companies and hire across multiple graduation years which either would leave a larger percentage of male engineers unemployed or make other companies less diverse. If women were 50% of STEM graduates and we still had an issue of diversity in tech that would be a different story, but currently most large tech companies have a higher percentage of women including in engineering than the national average in their relevant degrees and vocational education. Women make up less than 20% of most STEM programmes especially those related to computer sciences, women make up less than 20% of most coding bootcamps, so exactly where would these magic diversity quotas are supposed to come from?
- bigtex 10y ago
  Stop with the common sense. This is an issue where logic and facts go out the window when an agenda is at hand. I want to know is why doesn't Microsoft start up their own coding school or something if this is such a big problem.

foolrush 10y ago

> If there was an equally qualified man and woman- choosing the man over the woman because he is a man would be considered sexism. Bzzt. The only folks that believe this rubbish believe that all things are equal. This is false. The cultural framework and machinations have already greatly tilted the field in favor of the male, and in particular the white male. So if you believe this suddenly is sexism, you may want to check the current sociological landscape.

foolrush 10y ago
What would be fascinating is if one's down voting were coupled with their identified gender and race.
- ihsw 10y ago
  The sociological landscape is irrelevant and employers pandering to liberal nitwits is the height of stupidity. Frankly I think affirmative action is disgusting and it devalues us all. Progressive extremism truly is a cancer upon the tech industry (and humanity as a whole) and I hope the Western world gets its collective head out of its behind, no other section of the world buys into this garbage and for good reason -- it's empty gestures that serve only to stave off the wrath of violent SJWs that seek to pervert society with their backwards ideals. It's a policy borne of fear, fear of being smeared on Twitter and other leftist propaganda outlets. There is no other rationale.
- flukus 10y ago
  So you can dismiss arguments based on the gender and race of those making them?

barumrho 10y ago

There is currently a bias of preferring men over women. I think a policy like this can help you be more conscious about the candidates' actual qualification. Over-representation of a minority race isn't an issue. The goal isn't to have a workforce that matches racial distribution of the whole country; it is to have more diversity.