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Blame needs to be spread around certainly, but "I was just following orders" is hardly an excuse.

by hvs 10y ago

devoply 10y ago
I was following orders, or I would lose my employment and have to go hungry, not pay my mortgage, not feed my kids. End up in a divorce. Ruin my entire life. You are right, it's hardly an excuse. Managers often get fired for not managing the people under them properly. They are responsible for the underlings, that's why they make more money and are held to a higher standard. I did not know what was going on underneath me in my organization is not an excuse for a manager.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  Pardon the thought experiment, but how far does that apply in your opinion? Suppose it's your job to execute the children of political prisoners (I know this is an extreme example) - would you still say that despite it being your hands doing the deed, culpability would lie elsewhere, as the order to do so did not originate with you? Or is there a line? Also... who is a manager, exactly? Is it the guy who does the strangling's boss? His boss? His boss? Where does the buck stop?
  - devoply 10y ago
    Management has the ability in case of war to even diffuse that responsibility. So who fries for the execution is the person who gave the orders. In a hierarchical system, the person who gave the order and all his higher ups are responsible. That's how it works in the military. There is a chain of command, and those who are doing the commanding are the ones responsible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad#Blank_cartridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad#Blan...
    - coldcode 10y ago
      Except what I remember is something about finding a scapegoat at the bottom, and all the higher ups seem to have never been involved, and you blame the goat, and everyone else goes home happy but the goat. The military thrives on goatism.
      - madaxe_again 10y ago
        Actually, you just bounce it between goats and brass until everybody who had skin in the game is dead or dead bored. The problem with always deferring culpability upwards is that it usually leads to no culpability.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    There's a line, definitely this side of executing children, but probably the other side of quitting your job at Subway because the six inch sub is only 5 inches long.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > I would lose my employment Perhaps. If they did fire you for refusing to follow unethical (or illegal) orders, there might be judicial remedies. As we can see with this article and the HN threads for this story, reporting the problem to the public may open up other options and may deter future unethical behavior > not pay my mortgage, not feed my kids That's why unions and other parts of a social safety net are for. Do you want management to continue utilizing this power they have over you? Or are you willing to join with your peers and push back? If enough people across the software industry show their power by joining in a direct action (e.g. a strike) to tell management that unethical orders are not acceptable, future managers will have to reconsider if the gains from an unethical plan outweigh the risk of triggering another strike. Also, while your mortgage[1] may be a problem, feeding your kids after suddenly losing your job is what government welfare problems are for. Yes, it can be humiliating to use - I know from personal experience - but it should only be a temporary situation until you can find another job. > End up in a divorce. Really? For standing up against unethical behavior? Is a few months of penny-pinching sufficient reason for a divorce? > Ruin my entire life. The only way your life would be ruined is if you let it be ruined. Yes, losing your job sucks but it could be a lot worse. By following the unethical orders, you are conditioning management to believe they can get away with more unethical orders in the future. The longer this is allowed to continue, the harder it will be to correct. We already see this effect in how widespread and normalized unethical behavior has become across the industry. So yes, you might be forced into a bad situation if you fight back against unethical orders. It may require a significant sacrifice. Do you want to pay that cost now, or do you want to wait for the difficulty and cost to go up as management gains even more power? [1] If you don't have the savings to cover a couple months while you look for another job, then you probably shouldn't have bought that house.
  - notmything 10y ago
    Sounds good in principle but if I lose my job tomorrow are you going to guarantee this stuff for me and my family?
    - intended 10y ago
      The point is - are you going to guarantee a better world for your family. You can get paid and live comfortably till your family is magically at the back of the que because you've been "mis-tagged" in a system. Like it or not, right now the people awake in any way to the danger are people who write code day in and day out. That means you, who knows how an if statement, or a filter of a join can screw results.
- broccolisoup 10y ago
  > I was following orders, or I would lose my employment and have to go hungry, not pay my mortgage, not feed my kids. End up in a divorce. Ruin my entire life. You are right, it's hardly an excuse. Indeed. What you allege is called cowardice, and it is most definitely not an excuse. Then again, bullies do not prey on those who stand up to them. Those who attempt to rationalise their pusillanimity attract them like flies though. Please do yourself and everyone else a favour, stop blaming other people for your own weaknesses, and start to act in a way that can be an example and an inspiration to your kids. If nothing else, you owe it to them.
  - devoply 10y ago
    Well I have been fired for standing up. So honestly you don't know what you are talking about. I have no cowardice. I took a few people down with me, managers above me. But at the end of the day the problem is systemic, taking down a few higer ups still did not change the situation. Because the rules were wrong and the people responsible for them kept their job.

Blame needs to be spread around certainly, but "I was just following orders" is hardly an excuse.

by hvs 10y ago

Blame needs to be spread around certainly, but "I was just following orders" is hardly an excuse.

I was following orders, or I would lose my employment and have to go hungry, not pay my mortgage, not feed my kids. End up in a divorce. Ruin my entire life. You are right, it's hardly an excuse. Managers often get fired for not managing the people under them properly. They are responsible for the underlings, that's why they make more money and are held to a higher standard. I did not know what was going on underneath me in my organization is not an excuse for a manager.

madaxe_again 10y ago
Pardon the thought experiment, but how far does that apply in your opinion? Suppose it's your job to execute the children of political prisoners (I know this is an extreme example) - would you still say that despite it being your hands doing the deed, culpability would lie elsewhere, as the order to do so did not originate with you? Or is there a line? Also... who is a manager, exactly? Is it the guy who does the strangling's boss? His boss? His boss? Where does the buck stop?
- devoply 10y ago
  Management has the ability in case of war to even diffuse that responsibility. So who fries for the execution is the person who gave the orders. In a hierarchical system, the person who gave the order and all his higher ups are responsible. That's how it works in the military. There is a chain of command, and those who are doing the commanding are the ones responsible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad#Blank_cartridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad#Blan...
  - coldcode 10y ago
    Except what I remember is something about finding a scapegoat at the bottom, and all the higher ups seem to have never been involved, and you blame the goat, and everyone else goes home happy but the goat. The military thrives on goatism.
    - madaxe_again 10y ago
      Actually, you just bounce it between goats and brass until everybody who had skin in the game is dead or dead bored. The problem with always deferring culpability upwards is that it usually leads to no culpability.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  There's a line, definitely this side of executing children, but probably the other side of quitting your job at Subway because the six inch sub is only 5 inches long.
pdkl95 10y ago
> I would lose my employment Perhaps. If they did fire you for refusing to follow unethical (or illegal) orders, there might be judicial remedies. As we can see with this article and the HN threads for this story, reporting the problem to the public may open up other options and may deter future unethical behavior > not pay my mortgage, not feed my kids That's why unions and other parts of a social safety net are for. Do you want management to continue utilizing this power they have over you? Or are you willing to join with your peers and push back? If enough people across the software industry show their power by joining in a direct action (e.g. a strike) to tell management that unethical orders are not acceptable, future managers will have to reconsider if the gains from an unethical plan outweigh the risk of triggering another strike. Also, while your mortgage[1] may be a problem, feeding your kids after suddenly losing your job is what government welfare problems are for. Yes, it can be humiliating to use - I know from personal experience - but it should only be a temporary situation until you can find another job. > End up in a divorce. Really? For standing up against unethical behavior? Is a few months of penny-pinching sufficient reason for a divorce? > Ruin my entire life. The only way your life would be ruined is if you let it be ruined. Yes, losing your job sucks but it could be a lot worse. By following the unethical orders, you are conditioning management to believe they can get away with more unethical orders in the future. The longer this is allowed to continue, the harder it will be to correct. We already see this effect in how widespread and normalized unethical behavior has become across the industry. So yes, you might be forced into a bad situation if you fight back against unethical orders. It may require a significant sacrifice. Do you want to pay that cost now, or do you want to wait for the difficulty and cost to go up as management gains even more power? [1] If you don't have the savings to cover a couple months while you look for another job, then you probably shouldn't have bought that house.
- notmything 10y ago
  Sounds good in principle but if I lose my job tomorrow are you going to guarantee this stuff for me and my family?
  - intended 10y ago
    The point is - are you going to guarantee a better world for your family. You can get paid and live comfortably till your family is magically at the back of the que because you've been "mis-tagged" in a system. Like it or not, right now the people awake in any way to the danger are people who write code day in and day out. That means you, who knows how an if statement, or a filter of a join can screw results.
broccolisoup 10y ago
> I was following orders, or I would lose my employment and have to go hungry, not pay my mortgage, not feed my kids. End up in a divorce. Ruin my entire life. You are right, it's hardly an excuse. Indeed. What you allege is called cowardice, and it is most definitely not an excuse. Then again, bullies do not prey on those who stand up to them. Those who attempt to rationalise their pusillanimity attract them like flies though. Please do yourself and everyone else a favour, stop blaming other people for your own weaknesses, and start to act in a way that can be an example and an inspiration to your kids. If nothing else, you owe it to them.
- devoply 10y ago
  Well I have been fired for standing up. So honestly you don't know what you are talking about. I have no cowardice. I took a few people down with me, managers above me. But at the end of the day the problem is systemic, taking down a few higer ups still did not change the situation. Because the rules were wrong and the people responsible for them kept their job.