5 ms·

All headed by 70 year old rich men and politicians who won't be around to suffer the long-term environmental consequences. And look at the age demographics wher

by byuu 10y ago

All headed by 70 year old rich men and politicians who won't be around to suffer the long-term environmental consequences. And look at the age demographics where most of their votes come from. Yet everyone acts like it's a monstrous proposition when I state that voting power should be weighted based on age rather than location like it is today. Not that it matters, it's never going to change.

smsm42 10y ago
You mean, like less you know, less real life experience you have - more voting weight you get? Brilliant idea, that's what is missing in our politics - more immaturity, childishness and inexperience!
- XJOKOLAT 10y ago
  If you disliked the logic or content of what OP said, you essentially said the same thing from the other side of the spectrum.
  - wott 10y ago
    He did not. He did not propose to reduce young people voting weight.
- byuu 10y ago
  I said it wouldn't be a popular sentiment. But as they say, democracy is two wolves and one sheep deciding on what to have for dinner. Some rise above it, but human nature is inherently selfish. These 70 year olds have grandchildren too, and they're smart enough to play the politics game so I am sure they understand the overwhelming science on this issue, yet they clearly just don't care. And this election makes clear that we can't rely on the voting base to be well informed. It's a valid concern that one voter only has to worry about their decisions for the next five years, but the rest have to for the next sixty years. Yet we have no problem with prioritizing based on life expectancy when it comes to organ donor recipients, charging more for life insurance based on age, etc. Further, voting is already inherently unfair and weighted based on where you live thanks to the electoral college and every state getting two EC votes automatically. Some states result in voters having four times the voting power of people in other states. That and all the people living in guaranteed blue (California) or red (Texas) states effectively have no vote in practice. The same is even more true of senate representation, with two senators for every state, regardless of population. You look at something like marriage equality, and per Pew research, 71% of millenials approve yet only 38% of the silent generation do. Yet the issue has a serious chance of being reversed due to Trump's inevitable Supreme Court picks. And our generation will be stuck with the fallout of that (and every other social issue that's bound to come up in the future) for likely 40+ years. Look, I'm aging too. I'll be old soon. What I'm saying will already affect me as well. But this is just a matter of basic fairness. This administration is going to push us well over the edge on carbon emissions. Our grandchildren and beyond will pay dearly for the harm that's going to be done. Those responsible will be long gone by then. That is not fair.
  - smsm42 10y ago
    > But as they say, democracy is two wolves and one sheep deciding on what to have for dinner. That's why USA is not a democracy, it's a constitutional republic. > but the rest have to for the next sixty years. If you delude yourself with the idea you know what's going to happen in the next 60 years, you overestimate your abilities in such a way it's not even funny. > You look at something like marriage equality, and per Pew research, 71% of millenials approve yet only 38% of the silent generation do. So? > Yet the issue has a serious chance of being reversed due to Trump's inevitable Supreme Court picks. Based on what? Trump's position is that the issue is settled. > And our generation will be stuck with the fallout of that (and every other social issue that's bound to come up in the future) for likely 40+ years. There are a lot of SC decisions that the right didn't like. There are a lot of SC decisions that the left didn't like. Some of them change, some of them don't. I don't see how anything here is new or has anything to do with anything - there always will be some decisions somebody won't like. Trump pick would make SC as balanced as it has ever been - 4 lefty judges, 4 righty judges, one swing vote (Kennedy). Simplifying, of course, but that's what it is. Moreover, SC running ahead of public consensus is not usually a good idea. The continued abortion struggle is a proof - there obviously wasn't/isn't public consensus, and the issue is still a hot topic. With gay marriage though, the issue is much closer to public consensus and I predict it will vanish from public discussion (except of course panic propaganda on par with "Republicans are going to recreate slavery!") very soon. > Look, I'm aging too. I'll be old soon. What I'm saying will already affect me as well. But this is just a matter of basic fairness. No it's not. Nothing you said has anything to do with "basic fairness". > This administration is going to push us well over the edge on carbon emissions. I have no idea what that sentence means. I suspect neither do you. > Our grandchildren and beyond will pay dearly for the harm that's going to be done. That's always true - whatever we do, our grandchildren and beyond will have to deal with it. That's kind of by definition. > Those responsible will be long gone by then. That is not fair. I agree. I'd like to stick around for the next 1000 or so years, just to see what happens. Unfortunately, so far nobody found a way how. Very unfair!
    - byuu 10y ago
      > So? So maybe people that will be dead in five years shouldn't be deciding social issues for the next sixty. The silent generation had their lifetime "where men were MEN, women stayed in the kitchen, and gays didn't exist!" Now it's our turn to have a diverse society where people can be whoever they want to be. > Based on what? Trump's position is that the issue is settled. Is Trump going to nominate himself for the Supreme Court, then? It's not up to Trump how his nominations will rule on the issue. But based on endless cases as evidence (5-4 party line splits), a conservative court will reverse Obergefell v Hodges the second it gets the chance. It's not 100% certain, but the odds are very good if any of Ginsberg, Breyer, or Kennedy are replaced. The odds go up dramatically for two, and I would bet my life savings on it happening within 5-10 years if all three were replaced by Trump's administration. > There are a lot of SC decisions that the right didn't like. Correct, because Kennedy was less socially conservative, we managed 5-4 in Obergefell. But on fiscal issues, Citizens united was 5-4, Hobby Lobby was 5-4, gutting the voting rights act was 5-4, etc. You're deluding yourself if you think the USSC in its current state is anything but extremely hyper-partisan. And yes, that applies to both sides. > Trump pick would make SC as balanced as it has ever been - 4 lefty judges, 4 righty judges, one swing vote (Kennedy) Replacing Scalia won't change the dynamic in any way, that is correct. Clinton making that pick could have pushed it to the left, but I'm betting they would've magically confirmed Merrick Garland within the week had the democrats won the white house and senate. > Moreover, SC running ahead of public consensus is not usually a good idea. The continued abortion struggle is a proof - there obviously wasn't/isn't public consensus, and the issue is still a hot topic. Yeah, those darn activist judges in Loving v Virginia and Brown v Board of Education. We should always wait for popular opinion to catch up on what's right. /s > With gay marriage though, the issue is much closer to public consensus and I predict it will vanish from public discussion I sure hope you're right. But Trump voters made the gamble with my marriage, not theirs. > No it's not. Nothing you said has anything to do with "basic fairness". I'll respond with an equally compelling counter to your argument here -- "yeah huh, it does so!" Anyway, like I said, my opinion means nothing here. There's a snowball's chance in hell of us moving from proportional voting power based on physical location to proportional voting power based on age. Consider it my opinion, and we'll agree to disagree. > I have no idea what that sentence means. I suspect neither do you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point_(climatology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point_(climatology) (And no, I'm not a climate scientist. But I trust them a lot more than I trust oil and gas companies trying to protect their profits. See: tobacco companies in the '60s.)
mhb 10y ago
Clinton received a lower share of the vote among young voters (ages 18-29) than Obama received in 2012 or 2008. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trump...
- byuu 10y ago
  That's fine. My position isn't based on making sure my party wins. It obviously has a liberal slant just due to old people being more conservative for obvious reasons, but the real goal is fairness in "your vote is proportional to how long you have to suffer the consequences of it." I didn't vote for Clinton either, because she's not a liberal. She's a center-right candidate who is further to the right than Obama was (also a center-right candidate.) She was also far worse at giving motivational speeches, and after she and the DNC threw Bernie under the bus, it's not at all surprising she did poorly with younger voters.

by byuu 10y ago

smsm42 10y ago

You mean, like less you know, less real life experience you have - more voting weight you get? Brilliant idea, that's what is missing in our politics - more immaturity, childishness and inexperience!

XJOKOLAT 10y ago
If you disliked the logic or content of what OP said, you essentially said the same thing from the other side of the spectrum.
- wott 10y ago
  He did not. He did not propose to reduce young people voting weight.
byuu 10y ago
I said it wouldn't be a popular sentiment. But as they say, democracy is two wolves and one sheep deciding on what to have for dinner. Some rise above it, but human nature is inherently selfish. These 70 year olds have grandchildren too, and they're smart enough to play the politics game so I am sure they understand the overwhelming science on this issue, yet they clearly just don't care. And this election makes clear that we can't rely on the voting base to be well informed. It's a valid concern that one voter only has to worry about their decisions for the next five years, but the rest have to for the next sixty years. Yet we have no problem with prioritizing based on life expectancy when it comes to organ donor recipients, charging more for life insurance based on age, etc. Further, voting is already inherently unfair and weighted based on where you live thanks to the electoral college and every state getting two EC votes automatically. Some states result in voters having four times the voting power of people in other states. That and all the people living in guaranteed blue (California) or red (Texas) states effectively have no vote in practice. The same is even more true of senate representation, with two senators for every state, regardless of population. You look at something like marriage equality, and per Pew research, 71% of millenials approve yet only 38% of the silent generation do. Yet the issue has a serious chance of being reversed due to Trump's inevitable Supreme Court picks. And our generation will be stuck with the fallout of that (and every other social issue that's bound to come up in the future) for likely 40+ years. Look, I'm aging too. I'll be old soon. What I'm saying will already affect me as well. But this is just a matter of basic fairness. This administration is going to push us well over the edge on carbon emissions. Our grandchildren and beyond will pay dearly for the harm that's going to be done. Those responsible will be long gone by then. That is not fair.
- smsm42 10y ago
  > But as they say, democracy is two wolves and one sheep deciding on what to have for dinner. That's why USA is not a democracy, it's a constitutional republic. > but the rest have to for the next sixty years. If you delude yourself with the idea you know what's going to happen in the next 60 years, you overestimate your abilities in such a way it's not even funny. > You look at something like marriage equality, and per Pew research, 71% of millenials approve yet only 38% of the silent generation do. So? > Yet the issue has a serious chance of being reversed due to Trump's inevitable Supreme Court picks. Based on what? Trump's position is that the issue is settled. > And our generation will be stuck with the fallout of that (and every other social issue that's bound to come up in the future) for likely 40+ years. There are a lot of SC decisions that the right didn't like. There are a lot of SC decisions that the left didn't like. Some of them change, some of them don't. I don't see how anything here is new or has anything to do with anything - there always will be some decisions somebody won't like. Trump pick would make SC as balanced as it has ever been - 4 lefty judges, 4 righty judges, one swing vote (Kennedy). Simplifying, of course, but that's what it is. Moreover, SC running ahead of public consensus is not usually a good idea. The continued abortion struggle is a proof - there obviously wasn't/isn't public consensus, and the issue is still a hot topic. With gay marriage though, the issue is much closer to public consensus and I predict it will vanish from public discussion (except of course panic propaganda on par with "Republicans are going to recreate slavery!") very soon. > Look, I'm aging too. I'll be old soon. What I'm saying will already affect me as well. But this is just a matter of basic fairness. No it's not. Nothing you said has anything to do with "basic fairness". > This administration is going to push us well over the edge on carbon emissions. I have no idea what that sentence means. I suspect neither do you. > Our grandchildren and beyond will pay dearly for the harm that's going to be done. That's always true - whatever we do, our grandchildren and beyond will have to deal with it. That's kind of by definition. > Those responsible will be long gone by then. That is not fair. I agree. I'd like to stick around for the next 1000 or so years, just to see what happens. Unfortunately, so far nobody found a way how. Very unfair!
  - byuu 10y ago
    > So? So maybe people that will be dead in five years shouldn't be deciding social issues for the next sixty. The silent generation had their lifetime "where men were MEN, women stayed in the kitchen, and gays didn't exist!" Now it's our turn to have a diverse society where people can be whoever they want to be. > Based on what? Trump's position is that the issue is settled. Is Trump going to nominate himself for the Supreme Court, then? It's not up to Trump how his nominations will rule on the issue. But based on endless cases as evidence (5-4 party line splits), a conservative court will reverse Obergefell v Hodges the second it gets the chance. It's not 100% certain, but the odds are very good if any of Ginsberg, Breyer, or Kennedy are replaced. The odds go up dramatically for two, and I would bet my life savings on it happening within 5-10 years if all three were replaced by Trump's administration. > There are a lot of SC decisions that the right didn't like. Correct, because Kennedy was less socially conservative, we managed 5-4 in Obergefell. But on fiscal issues, Citizens united was 5-4, Hobby Lobby was 5-4, gutting the voting rights act was 5-4, etc. You're deluding yourself if you think the USSC in its current state is anything but extremely hyper-partisan. And yes, that applies to both sides. > Trump pick would make SC as balanced as it has ever been - 4 lefty judges, 4 righty judges, one swing vote (Kennedy) Replacing Scalia won't change the dynamic in any way, that is correct. Clinton making that pick could have pushed it to the left, but I'm betting they would've magically confirmed Merrick Garland within the week had the democrats won the white house and senate. > Moreover, SC running ahead of public consensus is not usually a good idea. The continued abortion struggle is a proof - there obviously wasn't/isn't public consensus, and the issue is still a hot topic. Yeah, those darn activist judges in Loving v Virginia and Brown v Board of Education. We should always wait for popular opinion to catch up on what's right. /s > With gay marriage though, the issue is much closer to public consensus and I predict it will vanish from public discussion I sure hope you're right. But Trump voters made the gamble with my marriage, not theirs. > No it's not. Nothing you said has anything to do with "basic fairness". I'll respond with an equally compelling counter to your argument here -- "yeah huh, it does so!" Anyway, like I said, my opinion means nothing here. There's a snowball's chance in hell of us moving from proportional voting power based on physical location to proportional voting power based on age. Consider it my opinion, and we'll agree to disagree. > I have no idea what that sentence means. I suspect neither do you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point_(climatology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping_point_(climatology) (And no, I'm not a climate scientist. But I trust them a lot more than I trust oil and gas companies trying to protect their profits. See: tobacco companies in the '60s.)

mhb 10y ago

Clinton received a lower share of the vote among young voters (ages 18-29) than Obama received in 2012 or 2008. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trump...

byuu 10y ago
That's fine. My position isn't based on making sure my party wins. It obviously has a liberal slant just due to old people being more conservative for obvious reasons, but the real goal is fairness in "your vote is proportional to how long you have to suffer the consequences of it." I didn't vote for Clinton either, because she's not a liberal. She's a center-right candidate who is further to the right than Obama was (also a center-right candidate.) She was also far worse at giving motivational speeches, and after she and the DNC threw Bernie under the bus, it's not at all surprising she did poorly with younger voters.