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That's only patronizing if you take yourself too seriously. Otherwise it's just direct and simple. That makes it easier to read and makes sure that the prose

by zedshaw 17y ago

That's only patronizing if you take yourself too seriously. Otherwise it's just direct and simple. That makes it easier to read and makes sure that the prose doesn't make things seem more complex than they actually are. Another way to put that is the complexity/simplicity of the prose attempts to match the complexity/simplicity of the exercise.

gte910h 17y ago
It's not me I'm worried about it coming off as patronizing to. I'm worried about people I might recommend it to (and thereby seem patronizing myself). With the current style, I'd probably only recommend it to kids and a couple adults I know very very well. Encouragement and assuming the user only knows what you have told them (which you do in a few places) are the things that don't come off as "adult literature". Hell, a couple teens I know would feel patronized by that, and teens definitely take themselves seriously. The short sentence structure is only the biggest of deal because of the other two facets. You could keep your grade 6 FKA score but ditch the other two parts of the style. As the tone is now, I'm pretty sure they'd take me handing this to them worse than a X for dummies book.
- Radix 17y ago
  Why can't you simply deride the language while praising the approach. Then the adult can believe you aren't being patronizing, maybe the book is, but the book is an effective way to learn. The teenagers can run through it in a short time (or read through it if they should be reading another book), and the adults will be fine. Have you heard how many adults say "oh I'm not very good with computers"? What's there to be good with? Not that the book is worth derision, just as a tactic for those who take themselves too seriously.
  - gte910h 17y ago
    As I said before: >It's not me I'm worried about it coming off as patronizing to. I know Zed's history. I'm not going to have issues using the book. But random non-programmers don't. And those are the people I'd hand the book to. I've got a thicker skin than some of them, and wouldn't care about the tone of the tome even if he directly insulted me. But THEY would. That's the issue.
    - jordyhoyt 17y ago
      You aren't listening. He said to, "deride the language" and "praise the approach" to those you give the book to. i.e. When you hand it to them, say, "the language is overly simple and patronizing, but his approach is a good way to learn." Then your (apparently) big-ego friends can mantain their air of superiority while reading the book, without being insulted. Not that I agree that his language needs to be changed; on the contrary I think is is great. I would have loved such a gentle introduction, at any age.
      - gte910h 17y ago
        They're not friends who I'd hand the book to. They're certain people at companies I know and work with professionally who ask me "Hey gte910h, what's a great way to learn programming". I'm known as respectful yet blunt. If I handed this to someone, they'd wonder if I was saying they came off as retarded or that I had no respect for them (or programming is much harder than it is for the type of tasks they want to do). For people who work in relationship based businesses (many non-programming businesses are), what others think about you is very important. The idea I thought them incompetent would be a very bad thing. Some of the people I'd hand a book that went through the typing approach without the coddling part would hear the book loud and clear and possibly not remember the message I could use to hand them the book: "Hey, this guy who tends to be a bit insulting to people in some of his writing wrote a book on programming. He acts like you're a dull 11 year old throughout the book. But hey, his method is good". These aren't people with big egos, but I'd sure as come off as having one about my profession if I tossed this at them. Especially if they handed it off to a third person who I never met but had heard of me. I'd just be more respectful and less helpful and not ever mention the problematic resource. It's not worth the risk I'd lose a client over it. >You aren't listening. He said to, "deride the language" and "praise the approach" to those you give the book to. It wasn't clear to me the poster was talking about those you give the book to. It just sounded to me like he wanted me to give props to Shaw for his approach while saying he wrote in a manner some would take offense to. As to Zed Shaw, I think I've honestly put in more work on the book already than 99% of the people who love it unconditionally have. I've read it in it's entirety and given suggested changes. Editors and critics are very useful when writing books. He doesn't need to change the style. If he changes the style, he can market it as a book for adults and children. If he keeps the style the same, he should market it as a book for 12 year olds. Then, when someone hands a copy, it says right there on the cover "Yo, this is for kids" and no one get's insulted as you can reveal "Hey, this is really good, in spite being for 12 year olds".

by zedshaw 17y ago

gte910h 17y ago

It's not me I'm worried about it coming off as patronizing to. I'm worried about people I might recommend it to (and thereby seem patronizing myself). With the current style, I'd probably only recommend it to kids and a couple adults I know very very well. Encouragement and assuming the user only knows what you have told them (which you do in a few places) are the things that don't come off as "adult literature". Hell, a couple teens I know would feel patronized by that, and teens definitely take themselves seriously. The short sentence structure is only the biggest of deal because of the other two facets. You could keep your grade 6 FKA score but ditch the other two parts of the style. As the tone is now, I'm pretty sure they'd take me handing this to them worse than a X for dummies book.

Radix 17y ago
Why can't you simply deride the language while praising the approach. Then the adult can believe you aren't being patronizing, maybe the book is, but the book is an effective way to learn. The teenagers can run through it in a short time (or read through it if they should be reading another book), and the adults will be fine. Have you heard how many adults say "oh I'm not very good with computers"? What's there to be good with? Not that the book is worth derision, just as a tactic for those who take themselves too seriously.
- gte910h 17y ago
  As I said before: >It's not me I'm worried about it coming off as patronizing to. I know Zed's history. I'm not going to have issues using the book. But random non-programmers don't. And those are the people I'd hand the book to. I've got a thicker skin than some of them, and wouldn't care about the tone of the tome even if he directly insulted me. But THEY would. That's the issue.
  - jordyhoyt 17y ago
    You aren't listening. He said to, "deride the language" and "praise the approach" to those you give the book to. i.e. When you hand it to them, say, "the language is overly simple and patronizing, but his approach is a good way to learn." Then your (apparently) big-ego friends can mantain their air of superiority while reading the book, without being insulted. Not that I agree that his language needs to be changed; on the contrary I think is is great. I would have loved such a gentle introduction, at any age.
    - gte910h 17y ago
      They're not friends who I'd hand the book to. They're certain people at companies I know and work with professionally who ask me "Hey gte910h, what's a great way to learn programming". I'm known as respectful yet blunt. If I handed this to someone, they'd wonder if I was saying they came off as retarded or that I had no respect for them (or programming is much harder than it is for the type of tasks they want to do). For people who work in relationship based businesses (many non-programming businesses are), what others think about you is very important. The idea I thought them incompetent would be a very bad thing. Some of the people I'd hand a book that went through the typing approach without the coddling part would hear the book loud and clear and possibly not remember the message I could use to hand them the book: "Hey, this guy who tends to be a bit insulting to people in some of his writing wrote a book on programming. He acts like you're a dull 11 year old throughout the book. But hey, his method is good". These aren't people with big egos, but I'd sure as come off as having one about my profession if I tossed this at them. Especially if they handed it off to a third person who I never met but had heard of me. I'd just be more respectful and less helpful and not ever mention the problematic resource. It's not worth the risk I'd lose a client over it. >You aren't listening. He said to, "deride the language" and "praise the approach" to those you give the book to. It wasn't clear to me the poster was talking about those you give the book to. It just sounded to me like he wanted me to give props to Shaw for his approach while saying he wrote in a manner some would take offense to. As to Zed Shaw, I think I've honestly put in more work on the book already than 99% of the people who love it unconditionally have. I've read it in it's entirety and given suggested changes. Editors and critics are very useful when writing books. He doesn't need to change the style. If he changes the style, he can market it as a book for adults and children. If he keeps the style the same, he should market it as a book for 12 year olds. Then, when someone hands a copy, it says right there on the cover "Yo, this is for kids" and no one get's insulted as you can reveal "Hey, this is really good, in spite being for 12 year olds".