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>There is not in fact a coherent "white culture". There are Irish Americans and there are Italian Americans and Polish Americans and Anglo-Americans and German-

by nyolfen 10y ago

>There is not in fact a coherent "white culture". There are Irish Americans and there are Italian Americans and Polish Americans and Anglo-Americans and German-Americans, all with their own museums and parades and cultures. There is not much overlap between Irish culture and Italian culture: they don't eat the same foods, speak the same languages, or play the same music. this is a little like saying "there is no han chinese culture" because it was largely an fabricated as an ethnicity for the purpose of national unity by the ccp in the mid-century. maybe historically 'white culture' wasn't a singular thing, but we have many decades of culture behind us now of people identifying primarily as white. my ancestors were scottish but i don't identify that way -- i'm a white dude, that's my lived experience in the american context. a lot of things i do, my speech patterns, many of my hobbies, are, maybe not exclusive, but perhaps more common among other white people -- i'd speculatively call that white culture.

tptacek 10y ago
No, you missed a bit in the middle there. I am not saying that constructed cultures aren't valid or real --- in fact, American black culture is one of the most prominent examples of a "synthesized" or "syncretic" culture! I'm saying that "white culture" isn't an example of one of those. We're linguistically disposed to assume it is, because if there's black culture, there must be white culture. But no, that's not how it works. Before there was "whiteness", there was racism (or ethnic discrimination or whatever you want to call it) against the Irish almost as virulent as racism against African Americans. The cutting edge of anti-Irish discrimination began blunting at the same period as "whiteness" started becoming a thing. It's hard to imagine --- as in, William of Ockham would have a thing or two to say about it --- that this simply because the English, Irish, and Italians suddenly and spontaneously synthesized a new culture.
geofft 10y ago
> my ancestors were scottish but i don't identify that way -- i'm a white dude, that's my lived experience in the american context. a lot of things i do, my speech patterns, many of my hobbies, are, maybe not exclusive, but perhaps more common among other white people -- i'd speculatively call that white culture. That's because white people found it advantageous to make it that way. My ethnicity, Indian-American, is definitely not white, but as far as I can tell that's just an accident of melanin. In things I do, in my speech patterns, in my hobbies, in my choice of church denomination, in my choice of neighborhood, in the groups I fit in with in grade school, in the music I listen to, etc., I'm extremely close to white, much more so than to black or Hispanic. If I didn't look down at my skin, my lived experience would be that I'm just as white. (I've had conversations about race with friends of Indian and other Asian descent in which the entire table has forgotten that we're not actually white.) If it weren't for the melanin problem, I am positive that "white people," the institution, would gladly grab us along for the ride, just as they did with the Irish and the Polish and so forth. (And, possibly, if it weren't for the fact that having us as a model minority makes it easier to oppress the non-model minorities without looking like you hate minorities in general.) And I'm rather worried about whether someone will one day figure out a term other than "white" to mean this alliance of not-black-not-Hispanic people, and Indian-Americans ans Asian-Americans will buy into it.
- tptacek 10y ago
  That is already happening. Note, for instance, the (fabulously bogus) narrative about the racial IQ gap, in which it is supposed that "white people" can safely suggest that "black people" are cognitively deficient† so long as they also concede that Eastern Asians are of superior intellect. People should think about that when they read rambling blog posts by people claiming not to be motivated by racial animosity but by concern for intelligence and aptitude. That line around Indian-American, Asian-American, and "white" people is already being drawn. † Again: fabulously bogus.
- nyolfen 10y ago
  >If it weren't for the melanin problem, I am positive that "white people," the institution, would gladly grab us along for the ride, just as they did with the Irish and the Polish and so forth. (And, possibly, if it weren't for the fact that having us as a model minority makes it easier to oppress the non-model minorities without looking like you hate minorities in general.) i'm sorry you have identity issues but it's not the result of a conspiracy to oppress minorities
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Is it really called a conspiracy when a double-digit percentage of the population openly professes it? There must be a better word.
  - geofft 10y ago
    > it's not the result of a conspiracy to oppress minorities Sorry, there is a strong argument that the "model minority" myth was, quite literally, a conspiracy to oppress minorities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Possible_causes_of_model_minority_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Possible_causes... http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Success%20Story,%20Japanese%20American%20Style%20(article)/ http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Success%20Story,%20Japanese%2... You can read the article that coined the term: http://inside.sfuhs.org/dept/history/US_History_reader/Chapter14/modelminority.pdf http://inside.sfuhs.org/dept/history/US_History_reader/Chapt... It is quite clearly being skeptical of efforts to help, quote, "problem minorities," because Japanese-Americans did just fine in the author's opinion. You can argue that no such conspiracy exists, but there's too much evidence in favor of it to be able to realistically dismiss it out of hand.

by nyolfen 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

No, you missed a bit in the middle there. I am not saying that constructed cultures aren't valid or real --- in fact, American black culture is one of the most prominent examples of a "synthesized" or "syncretic" culture! I'm saying that "white culture" isn't an example of one of those. We're linguistically disposed to assume it is, because if there's black culture, there must be white culture. But no, that's not how it works. Before there was "whiteness", there was racism (or ethnic discrimination or whatever you want to call it) against the Irish almost as virulent as racism against African Americans. The cutting edge of anti-Irish discrimination began blunting at the same period as "whiteness" started becoming a thing. It's hard to imagine --- as in, William of Ockham would have a thing or two to say about it --- that this simply because the English, Irish, and Italians suddenly and spontaneously synthesized a new culture.

geofft 10y ago

> my ancestors were scottish but i don't identify that way -- i'm a white dude, that's my lived experience in the american context. a lot of things i do, my speech patterns, many of my hobbies, are, maybe not exclusive, but perhaps more common among other white people -- i'd speculatively call that white culture. That's because white people found it advantageous to make it that way. My ethnicity, Indian-American, is definitely not white, but as far as I can tell that's just an accident of melanin. In things I do, in my speech patterns, in my hobbies, in my choice of church denomination, in my choice of neighborhood, in the groups I fit in with in grade school, in the music I listen to, etc., I'm extremely close to white, much more so than to black or Hispanic. If I didn't look down at my skin, my lived experience would be that I'm just as white. (I've had conversations about race with friends of Indian and other Asian descent in which the entire table has forgotten that we're not actually white.) If it weren't for the melanin problem, I am positive that "white people," the institution, would gladly grab us along for the ride, just as they did with the Irish and the Polish and so forth. (And, possibly, if it weren't for the fact that having us as a model minority makes it easier to oppress the non-model minorities without looking like you hate minorities in general.) And I'm rather worried about whether someone will one day figure out a term other than "white" to mean this alliance of not-black-not-Hispanic people, and Indian-Americans ans Asian-Americans will buy into it.

tptacek 10y ago
That is already happening. Note, for instance, the (fabulously bogus) narrative about the racial IQ gap, in which it is supposed that "white people" can safely suggest that "black people" are cognitively deficient† so long as they also concede that Eastern Asians are of superior intellect. People should think about that when they read rambling blog posts by people claiming not to be motivated by racial animosity but by concern for intelligence and aptitude. That line around Indian-American, Asian-American, and "white" people is already being drawn. † Again: fabulously bogus.
nyolfen 10y ago
>If it weren't for the melanin problem, I am positive that "white people," the institution, would gladly grab us along for the ride, just as they did with the Irish and the Polish and so forth. (And, possibly, if it weren't for the fact that having us as a model minority makes it easier to oppress the non-model minorities without looking like you hate minorities in general.) i'm sorry you have identity issues but it's not the result of a conspiracy to oppress minorities
- tptacek 10y ago
  Is it really called a conspiracy when a double-digit percentage of the population openly professes it? There must be a better word.
- geofft 10y ago
  > it's not the result of a conspiracy to oppress minorities Sorry, there is a strong argument that the "model minority" myth was, quite literally, a conspiracy to oppress minorities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Possible_causes_of_model_minority_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Possible_causes... http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Success%20Story,%20Japanese%20American%20Style%20(article)/ http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Success%20Story,%20Japanese%2... You can read the article that coined the term: http://inside.sfuhs.org/dept/history/US_History_reader/Chapter14/modelminority.pdf http://inside.sfuhs.org/dept/history/US_History_reader/Chapt... It is quite clearly being skeptical of efforts to help, quote, "problem minorities," because Japanese-Americans did just fine in the author's opinion. You can argue that no such conspiracy exists, but there's too much evidence in favor of it to be able to realistically dismiss it out of hand.