4 ms·

This is some really dubious logic and it's terrible that this should be considered valid research. To exclude the fact that some groups work harder, have compl

This is some really dubious logic and it's terrible that this should be considered valid research. To exclude the fact that some groups work harder, have completely different attitudes towards self preservation, who might have skills passed down from generation to generation, who might actually be more intelligent (contentious, I know, but it could be true). It's ridiculous. I grew up with a lot of Asian kids, and enough Black kids, and they were definitely different ethnic groups, in so many ways. It's crazy to think that 'only societies attitudes towards them' made the difference.

a_w 10y ago
I really hate these comments which imply that black (african) people are intellectually inferior. If so, how do you explain the fact that African immigrants and their children have consistently been the most successful group in terms of educational and income achievement? Just do a little research before insinuating that africans/blacks are less intelligent. Data says otherwise. [0] http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=2014101521150498 http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=2014101... [1] http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/06/obama-education-initiative-sparks-debate-on-black-immigrants-and-achievement/ http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/06/obama-education-initi... [2] http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-03-18/news/0703180344_1_black-immigrants-high-achieving-immigrants-biracial-couples http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-03-18/news/070318034...
- edblarney 10y ago
  I'm not implying anything other than it's plausible there may be some variation among ethnic groups in terms of applied intelligence - which is roughly the current scientific consensus. Just Google the Wikipedia article for 'race and intelligence'. It's quite clear there is still a lot of ambiguity. FYI - I believe cultural issues are the primary driver - in which case, your articles would support that thesis: Africans from African perform very differently on so many measures than African Americans, which might lead one to conclude that the issues is not 'racism' (I'm assuming Black people from Africa would face the same kind of racism as African Americans, rather culture/ethnicity.
  - a_w 10y ago
    I don't think you can exclude 'racism' as the main or contributing factor in the achievement gap. African immigrants grow up believing that they are just as intelligent as the rest of the world and are free from the constant insinuation of intellectual inferiority fired at them from the media and other ethnic groups on a daily basis as African Americans are. I could be wrong but I believe this plays a major role. I don't mean to take it out on you but it suddens me to read such hurtful comments on HN on a constant basis whenever the topic of race comes up, and I finally had to say something. Unfortunately you happened to be on the receiving end of it, and I apologize for it.
    - SisypheanTask 10y ago
      Aren't you committing an error in attributing the achievements of a select group (African immigrants/descendants, mostly Nigerian, living in Western countries) to a broader category (all black people)? This is just a step above saying: "Neil DeGrasse Tyson is intelligent, therefore Black Americans are intelligent". Does it not stand to reason that the immigrants from Nigeria who come here are likely to be more talented and ambitious than the average Nigerian? Nigeria has over 200 million people, is it any surprise that a selection of their best would produce offspring who are on average more intelligent and successful than the wider swathe of American-born blacks? I don't have a dog in this fight or a particular strong opinion either way, but your cherry-picked anecdotes fly in the face of statistical distributions that hold much more weight.
      - a_w 10y ago
        Pretty much all the articles I linked above address the same argument you are raising, they have data that says otherwise. Also interesting that I have yet to encounter the same argument when comparing the achievements of African Americans and Asians. I have honestly never heard of anyone saying that there are 1.4 billion Chinese and roughly the same number of Indians, so it could be argued that those who come here are more talented and ambitious than the average Chinese or Indian, so it would be unfair to compare that group and African Americans.
    - 10y ago
- a_w 10y ago
  Here is an even more extensive study on the academic achievements of African immigrants and their descendants in the U.S. and U.K. [0] If anything, the research demonstrates that the Igbo from Nigeria are exceptionally successful - more high achieving than Chinese and Indians: "Africans speaking Luganda and Krio did better than the Chinese students in 2011. The igbo were even more impressive given their much bigger numbers (and their consistently high performance over the years, gaining a 100 percent pass rate in 2009!). The superior Igbo achievement on GCSEs is not new and has been noted in studies that came before the recent media discovery of African performance. A 2007 report on “case study” model schools in Lambeth also included a rare disclosure of specified Igbo performance (recorded as Ibo in the table below) and it confirms that Igbos have been performing exceptionally well for a long time (5 + A*-C GCSEs); in fact, it is difficult to find a time when they ever performed below British whites." [0] http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/ http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-a...
  - edblarney 10y ago
    What you are doing is proving that there is a strong difference in behaviour among ethnic groups and that racism doesn't really account for (assuming 'Black people' face the same degree of racism wherever they are from). Your articles say nothing about the possibility of variance in intelligence among different groups.
    - a_w 10y ago
      I don't know. I have personally been told by good meaning friends that 'but you are different from African Americans' by other ethnic groups when I was in Engineering grad school. Also on your point regarding variance in intelligence among ethnic groups, African Americans mainly came from west Africa, and according to the article I linked above, west African immigrants in the US and UK are the highest achievers, so genes don't seem to be the issue. So, what is left, culture? If so, the culture of the African American people is molded by racism, both personal and institutional racism. All I am asking of you really is to not lightly dismiss racism as a contributing, if not the main factor in the achievement gap. It would be easy for me to say that if I can go to school and do well, why can't they do it too? But even though I grew up in a poor, war torn African country, fortunately I was never told on a daily basis that I was inferior because I happened to be black. And I am enormously thankful for that.

a_w 10y ago

I really hate these comments which imply that black (african) people are intellectually inferior. If so, how do you explain the fact that African immigrants and their children have consistently been the most successful group in terms of educational and income achievement? Just do a little research before insinuating that africans/blacks are less intelligent. Data says otherwise. [0] http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=2014101521150498 http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=2014101... [1] http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/06/obama-education-initiative-sparks-debate-on-black-immigrants-and-achievement/ http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/06/obama-education-initi... [2] http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-03-18/news/0703180344_1_black-immigrants-high-achieving-immigrants-biracial-couples http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-03-18/news/070318034...

edblarney 10y ago
I'm not implying anything other than it's plausible there may be some variation among ethnic groups in terms of applied intelligence - which is roughly the current scientific consensus. Just Google the Wikipedia article for 'race and intelligence'. It's quite clear there is still a lot of ambiguity. FYI - I believe cultural issues are the primary driver - in which case, your articles would support that thesis: Africans from African perform very differently on so many measures than African Americans, which might lead one to conclude that the issues is not 'racism' (I'm assuming Black people from Africa would face the same kind of racism as African Americans, rather culture/ethnicity.
- a_w 10y ago
  I don't think you can exclude 'racism' as the main or contributing factor in the achievement gap. African immigrants grow up believing that they are just as intelligent as the rest of the world and are free from the constant insinuation of intellectual inferiority fired at them from the media and other ethnic groups on a daily basis as African Americans are. I could be wrong but I believe this plays a major role. I don't mean to take it out on you but it suddens me to read such hurtful comments on HN on a constant basis whenever the topic of race comes up, and I finally had to say something. Unfortunately you happened to be on the receiving end of it, and I apologize for it.
  - SisypheanTask 10y ago
    Aren't you committing an error in attributing the achievements of a select group (African immigrants/descendants, mostly Nigerian, living in Western countries) to a broader category (all black people)? This is just a step above saying: "Neil DeGrasse Tyson is intelligent, therefore Black Americans are intelligent". Does it not stand to reason that the immigrants from Nigeria who come here are likely to be more talented and ambitious than the average Nigerian? Nigeria has over 200 million people, is it any surprise that a selection of their best would produce offspring who are on average more intelligent and successful than the wider swathe of American-born blacks? I don't have a dog in this fight or a particular strong opinion either way, but your cherry-picked anecdotes fly in the face of statistical distributions that hold much more weight.
    - a_w 10y ago
      Pretty much all the articles I linked above address the same argument you are raising, they have data that says otherwise. Also interesting that I have yet to encounter the same argument when comparing the achievements of African Americans and Asians. I have honestly never heard of anyone saying that there are 1.4 billion Chinese and roughly the same number of Indians, so it could be argued that those who come here are more talented and ambitious than the average Chinese or Indian, so it would be unfair to compare that group and African Americans.
  - 10y ago
a_w 10y ago
Here is an even more extensive study on the academic achievements of African immigrants and their descendants in the U.S. and U.K. [0] If anything, the research demonstrates that the Igbo from Nigeria are exceptionally successful - more high achieving than Chinese and Indians: "Africans speaking Luganda and Krio did better than the Chinese students in 2011. The igbo were even more impressive given their much bigger numbers (and their consistently high performance over the years, gaining a 100 percent pass rate in 2009!). The superior Igbo achievement on GCSEs is not new and has been noted in studies that came before the recent media discovery of African performance. A 2007 report on “case study” model schools in Lambeth also included a rare disclosure of specified Igbo performance (recorded as Ibo in the table below) and it confirms that Igbos have been performing exceptionally well for a long time (5 + A*-C GCSEs); in fact, it is difficult to find a time when they ever performed below British whites." [0] http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/ http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-a...
- edblarney 10y ago
  What you are doing is proving that there is a strong difference in behaviour among ethnic groups and that racism doesn't really account for (assuming 'Black people' face the same degree of racism wherever they are from). Your articles say nothing about the possibility of variance in intelligence among different groups.
  - a_w 10y ago
    I don't know. I have personally been told by good meaning friends that 'but you are different from African Americans' by other ethnic groups when I was in Engineering grad school. Also on your point regarding variance in intelligence among ethnic groups, African Americans mainly came from west Africa, and according to the article I linked above, west African immigrants in the US and UK are the highest achievers, so genes don't seem to be the issue. So, what is left, culture? If so, the culture of the African American people is molded by racism, both personal and institutional racism. All I am asking of you really is to not lightly dismiss racism as a contributing, if not the main factor in the achievement gap. It would be easy for me to say that if I can go to school and do well, why can't they do it too? But even though I grew up in a poor, war torn African country, fortunately I was never told on a daily basis that I was inferior because I happened to be black. And I am enormously thankful for that.