5 ms·

> a significant amount of resources go towards a lifetime supply of drug cocktails for long term HIV patients (which is all of them) With my tin foil hat on, I

by Jaruzel 10y ago

> a significant amount of resources go towards a lifetime supply of drug cocktails for long term HIV patients (which is all of them) With my tin foil hat on, I've always wondered that now there is a very profitable business (for the big Pharma companies) out of just providing HIV positive people with drugs for years, that there is little appetite (again, inside big pharma) to actually 'cure' the disease...?

jack9 10y ago
This doesn't make much sense, when very rich people (like Steve Jobs) get diseases and die. If there was a cure, at some point one of these ultra rich individuals would receive "the hidden cure" or have an overt relationship with a medical center leading to recovery. Being able to cure a disease, is generally more profitable for a generation (or more) as it's THE goto product and people are irresponsible enough that there's always new communication vectors.
jghn 10y ago
This is often brought up but having had some experience in the field this does not happen. Not only would you hear a tremendous shout from the researchers themselves crying foul but the company that "cures AIDS" is going to make an assload of money and earn tremendous PR. The real problem is not pharma trying to turn things chronic but rather people who have less common or less prominent diseases.
- Alex3917 10y ago
  > This is often brought up but having had some experience in the field this does not happen. That's not entirely true. When Hillary Clinton was running health policy in Washington, the white house threatened to impose trade sanctions on India and South Africa if they manufactured generic drugs to treat their citizens with HIV. This was before it had become an epidemic in those areas. And now that it is an epidemic, the pharma companies get tax writeoffs by working with the Clinton Foundation to provide treatment in those areas at 'reduced cost'.
  - paublyrne 10y ago
    When was Hillary Clinton ever running health policy? Apart from trying to implement 'Clintoncare' early in the Bill Clinton presidency I can not find any record of this. I agree that insisting that third world countries who are already debtors to first world countries for aid pay huge sums for HIV drugs is problematic at best, but I am not sure why you add Clinton's name into this argument.
    - Alex3917 10y ago
      Bill controversially appointed her to be the chairperson for Task Force on National Health Care Reform, which was responsible for creating the healthcare policy for the white house. This task for is what created the Hillarycare bill. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biography/clinton-hillary/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biograph...
      - snowwrestler 10y ago
        A) That task force did not cover all health care policy, in fact it was insulated from current policymaking in order to give it freer rein to think innovatively about the future. B) The issue you mention does not even fall under health care policy, it falls under IP and trade policy, because the point of objection is when foreign nations nullify or nationalize U.S. pharma patents. That is an ongoing fight to this day, BTW.
  - jghn 10y ago
    That's not what I was referring to. I was responding to the claim that pharmas are inclined to make treatments instead of cures in order to transform a terminal illness into a chronic one and thus make more money long term.
    - Alex3917 10y ago
      But with the case of HIV (and other infectious diseases), the treatment and the cure are the same drug. E.g. they could have treated people early to avoid the epidemic before it started. But instead the pharma companies lobbied the government to wait for the epidemic to take hold first, so that they could market the treatment later instead.
Kluny 10y ago
If one company has expensive treatments for a disease, and another company has a cure for it (at any price), which company is going to make more money? The one who has the cure, I'd say. Multiple companies could collude to keep a cure off the market. But such cooperation would require all the collaborators to be simultaneously honorable enough to keep the agreement, and dishonorable enough to keep life-saving drugs away from people who are dying. I find that unlikely. Meanwhile it would only take one traitor to make the deal collapse. Such a traitor could be any person who is in on the secret and also has a family member affected by the disease in question. It takes dozens of scientists, project managers, lab assistants, and random extra staff to create a new drug. I don't believe that many people can keep any kind of secret for any amount of time, let alone a secret as hot as a cure for (in this case) HIV. This is why I don't believe in the idea that drug companies intentionally keep cures off the market. If no cure is available, it's probably because it genuinely doesn't exist yet.
- darawk 10y ago
  > If one company has expensive treatments for a disease, and another company has a cure for it (at any price), which company is going to make more money? The one who has the cure, I'd say. That's not quite correct. The company with the cure will make more money going forward. But not necessarily overall, and the difference there is important. Let's say you're a venture investor in biotech, and you're thinking about whether to fund the development of an HIV cure or a better HIV treatment. Both will completely replace the existing market in HIV drugs. When you do the net present value calculation for the treatment however, you'll see that you have some probability of people staying on it basically forever. That means that over time, you can extract more money from it, which means of course that you ought to be willing to invest more money in developing it. It is through this completely rational, non-evil mechanism that treatments may receive more funding than cures. Nobody here is suppressing anything, it's just that one of them will receive more funding than the other because it has a greater potential ROI.
  - Kluny 10y ago
    In that case, do charity organizations that collect money to cure specific diseases or cancers actually make a difference, since their donations are supposed to go to research for cures?
akiselev 10y ago
The market size for HIV/AIDS drugs is under $15 billion [1] so while it's not chump change, it is a tiny fraction of pharmaceutical revenue (over $900 billion I believe). Like the rest of pharma, there's a fast approaching patent cliff which will free a lot of the important IP and many nations have shown they're willing to spend billions to subsidize the development of cheaper generics so I'm not sure that this source of revenue is considered reliable by pharmaceutical companies. Cancer and HIV drugs are the most expensive to develop because they are all used in complex therapeutics and I wouldn't expect many more big blockbusters either. Note also that pharmaceutical companies acquire their IP through M&A of biotechnology startups about as often as through internal R&D and biotech VCs don't have the same incentives as the conglomerates. Furthermore, the cost of HIV drugs isn't even the majority of the cost of HIV treatment because the constant monitoring and long term complications are extremely expensive. A single hospital visit for HIV-related pneumonia or another opportunistic infection can cost more than several years worth of the drug cocktails and the visits become more frequent and expensive with age as the weakening immune system contributes negatively to almost every other healthcare issue. The incentives for public health and universal healthcare agencies around the world is pretty cleanly aligned with curing HIV at any cost. [1] http://store.globaldata.com/market-reports/pharmaceuticals-and-healthcare/pharmapoint-human-immunodeficiency-virus-hiv-global-drug-forecast-and-market-analysis-to-2023 http://store.globaldata.com/market-reports/pharmaceuticals-a...
brownbat 10y ago
It's a tempting conspiracy theory, but there are a few reasons that persuade me it's very unlikely. 1. Researchers build careers based on reputation. The reputational value of "cured cancer" (even for some small subset of cancer) is probably worth more than a lifetime of developing treatments. 2. Also, some motivated researchers have lost family or friends to the diseases they're working on. 3. Also, many researchers are simply not working at for-profit companies. All of the above can be filed under "profit is not the only motive for curing diseases (even if it's a powerful one, it's not the exclusive one)." A different tack: 4. Many lines of research have unpredictable results. Studying a virus to develop a treatment may uncover a key weakness that results in a cure. Foundational research often is too early to prioritize a use, and breakthroughs happen in unpredictable ways. 5. There are a lot of players involved in research. A big mix of for-profit companies, NGOs, and governments might have to collude to avoid developing impending cures. So if there's an reasonable next step for global research, it'd be a bad gamble for a company to avoid it, hoping that no one else would pursue it either. ie, If you can get there, assume others can too, so just claim the credit. EDIT: OTOH if you want to run with this line of thinking, there's a great classic comedy called "The Man in the White Suit" starring Alec Guinness. He invents an unstainable suit that never needs cleaned, and the garment industry sends people to stop him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_White_Suit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_White_Suit
- Fomite 10y ago
  This. If nothing else, many academics are motivated by ego rather than money (I'd put myself in this category). Having successfully discovered a cure for HIV would do such spectacular things for my career that the level of money that would have to be involved is pretty substantial - and would have to be spread over a large number of people.
henrikschroder 10y ago
There was a cure for Hepatitis C released last year. It's expensive, but priced below the average cost of a lifetime of treatment, so all the incentives align to get everyone to choose the cure. This of course brings money and marketshare to the company that owns the cure over the company that owns the treatment patents, and it brings recognition to the scientists involved. So you can take off that tinfoil hat, if someone would find a cure for HIV, they would absolutely not sit on it.
emiliobumachar 10y ago
One could theoretically charge for a cure a little over the cost of the lifetime supply of drug cocktails, and it would still be slightly worth it for the buyer. Of course, in practice, doing so would lead to severe media outrage, calls for regulation, state-sanctioned patent breaching all over the world, etc. So the practical price is capped. Investors know this.

by Jaruzel 10y ago

jack9 10y ago

This doesn't make much sense, when very rich people (like Steve Jobs) get diseases and die. If there was a cure, at some point one of these ultra rich individuals would receive "the hidden cure" or have an overt relationship with a medical center leading to recovery. Being able to cure a disease, is generally more profitable for a generation (or more) as it's THE goto product and people are irresponsible enough that there's always new communication vectors.

jghn 10y ago

This is often brought up but having had some experience in the field this does not happen. Not only would you hear a tremendous shout from the researchers themselves crying foul but the company that "cures AIDS" is going to make an assload of money and earn tremendous PR. The real problem is not pharma trying to turn things chronic but rather people who have less common or less prominent diseases.

Alex3917 10y ago
> This is often brought up but having had some experience in the field this does not happen. That's not entirely true. When Hillary Clinton was running health policy in Washington, the white house threatened to impose trade sanctions on India and South Africa if they manufactured generic drugs to treat their citizens with HIV. This was before it had become an epidemic in those areas. And now that it is an epidemic, the pharma companies get tax writeoffs by working with the Clinton Foundation to provide treatment in those areas at 'reduced cost'.
- paublyrne 10y ago
  When was Hillary Clinton ever running health policy? Apart from trying to implement 'Clintoncare' early in the Bill Clinton presidency I can not find any record of this. I agree that insisting that third world countries who are already debtors to first world countries for aid pay huge sums for HIV drugs is problematic at best, but I am not sure why you add Clinton's name into this argument.
  - Alex3917 10y ago
    Bill controversially appointed her to be the chairperson for Task Force on National Health Care Reform, which was responsible for creating the healthcare policy for the white house. This task for is what created the Hillarycare bill. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biography/clinton-hillary/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/biograph...
    - snowwrestler 10y ago
      A) That task force did not cover all health care policy, in fact it was insulated from current policymaking in order to give it freer rein to think innovatively about the future. B) The issue you mention does not even fall under health care policy, it falls under IP and trade policy, because the point of objection is when foreign nations nullify or nationalize U.S. pharma patents. That is an ongoing fight to this day, BTW.
- jghn 10y ago
  That's not what I was referring to. I was responding to the claim that pharmas are inclined to make treatments instead of cures in order to transform a terminal illness into a chronic one and thus make more money long term.
  - Alex3917 10y ago
    But with the case of HIV (and other infectious diseases), the treatment and the cure are the same drug. E.g. they could have treated people early to avoid the epidemic before it started. But instead the pharma companies lobbied the government to wait for the epidemic to take hold first, so that they could market the treatment later instead.

Kluny 10y ago

If one company has expensive treatments for a disease, and another company has a cure for it (at any price), which company is going to make more money? The one who has the cure, I'd say. Multiple companies could collude to keep a cure off the market. But such cooperation would require all the collaborators to be simultaneously honorable enough to keep the agreement, and dishonorable enough to keep life-saving drugs away from people who are dying. I find that unlikely. Meanwhile it would only take one traitor to make the deal collapse. Such a traitor could be any person who is in on the secret and also has a family member affected by the disease in question. It takes dozens of scientists, project managers, lab assistants, and random extra staff to create a new drug. I don't believe that many people can keep any kind of secret for any amount of time, let alone a secret as hot as a cure for (in this case) HIV. This is why I don't believe in the idea that drug companies intentionally keep cures off the market. If no cure is available, it's probably because it genuinely doesn't exist yet.

darawk 10y ago
> If one company has expensive treatments for a disease, and another company has a cure for it (at any price), which company is going to make more money? The one who has the cure, I'd say. That's not quite correct. The company with the cure will make more money going forward. But not necessarily overall, and the difference there is important. Let's say you're a venture investor in biotech, and you're thinking about whether to fund the development of an HIV cure or a better HIV treatment. Both will completely replace the existing market in HIV drugs. When you do the net present value calculation for the treatment however, you'll see that you have some probability of people staying on it basically forever. That means that over time, you can extract more money from it, which means of course that you ought to be willing to invest more money in developing it. It is through this completely rational, non-evil mechanism that treatments may receive more funding than cures. Nobody here is suppressing anything, it's just that one of them will receive more funding than the other because it has a greater potential ROI.
- Kluny 10y ago
  In that case, do charity organizations that collect money to cure specific diseases or cancers actually make a difference, since their donations are supposed to go to research for cures?

akiselev 10y ago

The market size for HIV/AIDS drugs is under $15 billion [1] so while it's not chump change, it is a tiny fraction of pharmaceutical revenue (over $900 billion I believe). Like the rest of pharma, there's a fast approaching patent cliff which will free a lot of the important IP and many nations have shown they're willing to spend billions to subsidize the development of cheaper generics so I'm not sure that this source of revenue is considered reliable by pharmaceutical companies. Cancer and HIV drugs are the most expensive to develop because they are all used in complex therapeutics and I wouldn't expect many more big blockbusters either. Note also that pharmaceutical companies acquire their IP through M&A of biotechnology startups about as often as through internal R&D and biotech VCs don't have the same incentives as the conglomerates. Furthermore, the cost of HIV drugs isn't even the majority of the cost of HIV treatment because the constant monitoring and long term complications are extremely expensive. A single hospital visit for HIV-related pneumonia or another opportunistic infection can cost more than several years worth of the drug cocktails and the visits become more frequent and expensive with age as the weakening immune system contributes negatively to almost every other healthcare issue. The incentives for public health and universal healthcare agencies around the world is pretty cleanly aligned with curing HIV at any cost. [1] http://store.globaldata.com/market-reports/pharmaceuticals-and-healthcare/pharmapoint-human-immunodeficiency-virus-hiv-global-drug-forecast-and-market-analysis-to-2023 http://store.globaldata.com/market-reports/pharmaceuticals-a...

brownbat 10y ago

It's a tempting conspiracy theory, but there are a few reasons that persuade me it's very unlikely. 1. Researchers build careers based on reputation. The reputational value of "cured cancer" (even for some small subset of cancer) is probably worth more than a lifetime of developing treatments. 2. Also, some motivated researchers have lost family or friends to the diseases they're working on. 3. Also, many researchers are simply not working at for-profit companies. All of the above can be filed under "profit is not the only motive for curing diseases (even if it's a powerful one, it's not the exclusive one)." A different tack: 4. Many lines of research have unpredictable results. Studying a virus to develop a treatment may uncover a key weakness that results in a cure. Foundational research often is too early to prioritize a use, and breakthroughs happen in unpredictable ways. 5. There are a lot of players involved in research. A big mix of for-profit companies, NGOs, and governments might have to collude to avoid developing impending cures. So if there's an reasonable next step for global research, it'd be a bad gamble for a company to avoid it, hoping that no one else would pursue it either. ie, If you can get there, assume others can too, so just claim the credit. EDIT: OTOH if you want to run with this line of thinking, there's a great classic comedy called "The Man in the White Suit" starring Alec Guinness. He invents an unstainable suit that never needs cleaned, and the garment industry sends people to stop him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_White_Suit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_White_Suit

Fomite 10y ago
This. If nothing else, many academics are motivated by ego rather than money (I'd put myself in this category). Having successfully discovered a cure for HIV would do such spectacular things for my career that the level of money that would have to be involved is pretty substantial - and would have to be spread over a large number of people.

henrikschroder 10y ago

There was a cure for Hepatitis C released last year. It's expensive, but priced below the average cost of a lifetime of treatment, so all the incentives align to get everyone to choose the cure. This of course brings money and marketshare to the company that owns the cure over the company that owns the treatment patents, and it brings recognition to the scientists involved. So you can take off that tinfoil hat, if someone would find a cure for HIV, they would absolutely not sit on it.

emiliobumachar 10y ago

One could theoretically charge for a cure a little over the cost of the lifetime supply of drug cocktails, and it would still be slightly worth it for the buyer. Of course, in practice, doing so would lead to severe media outrage, calls for regulation, state-sanctioned patent breaching all over the world, etc. So the practical price is capped. Investors know this.