5 ms·

Still very incomplete. Goes from exercise 10 (by which point they've not done if statements) to exercise 27 (where they start learning about AND OR etc. Tone/d

by gte910h 17y ago

Still very incomplete. Goes from exercise 10 (by which point they've not done if statements) to exercise 27 (where they start learning about AND OR etc. Tone/diction/sentence structure is a bit patronizing. I think Shaw was going for more basic than is required for most intelligent adults.

billjings 17y ago
Have you never worked with someone and had the thought go through your head, "Sure, this person's intelligent... but can they write code?" I'm not sure this book is a solution to that problem, but it certainly has a strong opinion.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  A programming book has as much of a chance of turning you into a programmer than swimming classes of turning you into a fish.
  - hockeybias 17y ago
    I fail to concur.
  - harpastum 17y ago
    I disagree with that analogy. It's true that some people just aren't ever going to be programmers, and no number of books will help that. On the other hand, some people have all of the correct mental attitudes, they just haven't been introduced to programming before. I think a much more reasonable analogy is something like playing the harp. Most people see little point in learning, and many of those that try it won't have the aptitude/interest to actually become adept, but there are a few that will become masters.
    - rbanffy 17y ago
      > some people have all of the correct mental attitudes, they just haven't been introduced to programming before. They already are programmers. They just don't know it yet
      - pyre 17y ago
        It may be semantics at this point, but 'being a programmer' isn't a certain mental attitude/aptitude such much as it requires a certain mental attitude/aptitude. Just having that attitude/aptitude doesn't 'make your a programmer.'
doki_pen 17y ago
It seemed more geared towards kids to me. It seems like an attempt to bring back the way a lot of us learned, by buying books/magazines with code listings and typing them in. It's a decent idea. Anyone can do it and you really do learn something about writing code. Sadly, we stopped doing this when books started to come with disks. And then the internet... There is much less satisfaction with looking at source that is already typed and running it. As an aside, I like that Zed is very opinionated.
- zedshaw 17y ago
  Yep, that's exactly what it does. I wouldn't say it's geared toward kids, just anyone very new to programming. I'm writing it at about a 6-7 grade level so that the prose doesn't scare people away.
zedshaw 17y ago
Yep, still a work in progress. Ex 27 is where they switch to learning logic, so I laid a marker there to work toward. It's not really patronizing so much as "gentle" to non-programmers. I do however poke fun at programmers because non-programmers have some odd beliefs about coders being these gods that they aren't. By cracking little jokes are programmers I'm hoping to get them over this fear.
- gte910h 17y ago
  Oh hi there, forgot this is a small world we're in and you might actually read my comment. You're a good writer most of the time, however, I believe you're trying to use a certain style here, and that style may not be appropriate for this type of work if you are aiming at adults and children both; it is appropriate for a children's book though. The patronizing part wasn't the non-programmer part and making fun of programmers. I actually loved the line about VI/Emacs. It was the overly simplified sentences. Let me dig the pdf out: You can print things out with print and you can do math. The next step is to learn about variables. In programming a variable is nothing more than a name for something so you can use the name rather than the something as you code. Programmers use these variable names to make their code read more like English, and because programmers have a lousy ability to remember things. If they didn’t use good names for things in their software they’d get lost when they came back and tried to read their code again. For instance in this section your actual sentences are very simple. Over and over you use these simple sentences. And you use an explicit "you". It gives the feel of a children's book (I don't know if you have kids, but if not, google for some of the books or ask a co-worker to borrow some). I think explicit "you" is fine, but the constant reassurance compounded with the sentence structure and explicit "you" feels patronizing. Other examples: You might not know it, but every time you put " (double-quotes) around a piece of text you’ve been making a string. Most of these concepts will be exciting once you get them. You’ll struggle with them, like wrestling a squid, then one day snap you’ll understand it. I know several people professionally who'd benefit from the book if you upped the "implicit respect" of the style a few notches. However, I'd be afraid to give it to a few of them out of fear of insulting them with the way some people will interpret the tone. I'm putting this out there in all earnestness. Here are a couple books on two different styles which might be more applicable for the work. They are on actual explicit styles of writing, although the second pretends all writing should look like that. Clear and Simple as the Truth by Thomas & Turner (Classic style). Nonafflink: http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Simple-As-Truth-Writing/dp/0691029172/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272401038&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Simple-As-Truth-Writing/dp/06910... Example of classic style: When I was a boy, there was but one permanent ambition among my comrades in our village footnote [1. Hannibal, Missouri] on the west bank of the Mississippi River. That was, to be a steamboatman. We had transient ambitions of other sorts, but they were only transient. When a circus came and went, it left us all burning to become clowns; .... now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates. These ambitions faded out, each in its turn; but the ambition to be a steamboatman always remained. --Mark Twain Style by Williams (Plain Style): Nonafflink: http://www.amazon.com/Style-Clarity-Chicago-Writing-Publishing/dp/0226899152/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272401237&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Style-Clarity-Chicago-Writing-Publishi... Example: After Peter the Great died, seven out of eight reigns of the Romanov line were plagued by turmoil over disputed succession to the throne. -- Williams edit to uncredited work on Russia

by gte910h 17y ago

billjings 17y ago

Have you never worked with someone and had the thought go through your head, "Sure, this person's intelligent... but can they write code?" I'm not sure this book is a solution to that problem, but it certainly has a strong opinion.

rbanffy 17y ago
A programming book has as much of a chance of turning you into a programmer than swimming classes of turning you into a fish.
- hockeybias 17y ago
  I fail to concur.
- harpastum 17y ago
  I disagree with that analogy. It's true that some people just aren't ever going to be programmers, and no number of books will help that. On the other hand, some people have all of the correct mental attitudes, they just haven't been introduced to programming before. I think a much more reasonable analogy is something like playing the harp. Most people see little point in learning, and many of those that try it won't have the aptitude/interest to actually become adept, but there are a few that will become masters.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    > some people have all of the correct mental attitudes, they just haven't been introduced to programming before. They already are programmers. They just don't know it yet
    - pyre 17y ago
      It may be semantics at this point, but 'being a programmer' isn't a certain mental attitude/aptitude such much as it requires a certain mental attitude/aptitude. Just having that attitude/aptitude doesn't 'make your a programmer.'

doki_pen 17y ago

It seemed more geared towards kids to me. It seems like an attempt to bring back the way a lot of us learned, by buying books/magazines with code listings and typing them in. It's a decent idea. Anyone can do it and you really do learn something about writing code. Sadly, we stopped doing this when books started to come with disks. And then the internet... There is much less satisfaction with looking at source that is already typed and running it. As an aside, I like that Zed is very opinionated.

zedshaw 17y ago
Yep, that's exactly what it does. I wouldn't say it's geared toward kids, just anyone very new to programming. I'm writing it at about a 6-7 grade level so that the prose doesn't scare people away.

zedshaw 17y ago

Yep, still a work in progress. Ex 27 is where they switch to learning logic, so I laid a marker there to work toward. It's not really patronizing so much as "gentle" to non-programmers. I do however poke fun at programmers because non-programmers have some odd beliefs about coders being these gods that they aren't. By cracking little jokes are programmers I'm hoping to get them over this fear.

gte910h 17y ago
Oh hi there, forgot this is a small world we're in and you might actually read my comment. You're a good writer most of the time, however, I believe you're trying to use a certain style here, and that style may not be appropriate for this type of work if you are aiming at adults and children both; it is appropriate for a children's book though. The patronizing part wasn't the non-programmer part and making fun of programmers. I actually loved the line about VI/Emacs. It was the overly simplified sentences. Let me dig the pdf out: You can print things out with print and you can do math. The next step is to learn about variables. In programming a variable is nothing more than a name for something so you can use the name rather than the something as you code. Programmers use these variable names to make their code read more like English, and because programmers have a lousy ability to remember things. If they didn’t use good names for things in their software they’d get lost when they came back and tried to read their code again. For instance in this section your actual sentences are very simple. Over and over you use these simple sentences. And you use an explicit "you". It gives the feel of a children's book (I don't know if you have kids, but if not, google for some of the books or ask a co-worker to borrow some). I think explicit "you" is fine, but the constant reassurance compounded with the sentence structure and explicit "you" feels patronizing. Other examples: You might not know it, but every time you put " (double-quotes) around a piece of text you’ve been making a string. Most of these concepts will be exciting once you get them. You’ll struggle with them, like wrestling a squid, then one day snap you’ll understand it. I know several people professionally who'd benefit from the book if you upped the "implicit respect" of the style a few notches. However, I'd be afraid to give it to a few of them out of fear of insulting them with the way some people will interpret the tone. I'm putting this out there in all earnestness. Here are a couple books on two different styles which might be more applicable for the work. They are on actual explicit styles of writing, although the second pretends all writing should look like that. Clear and Simple as the Truth by Thomas & Turner (Classic style). Nonafflink: http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Simple-As-Truth-Writing/dp/0691029172/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272401038&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Simple-As-Truth-Writing/dp/06910... Example of classic style: When I was a boy, there was but one permanent ambition among my comrades in our village footnote [1. Hannibal, Missouri] on the west bank of the Mississippi River. That was, to be a steamboatman. We had transient ambitions of other sorts, but they were only transient. When a circus came and went, it left us all burning to become clowns; .... now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates. These ambitions faded out, each in its turn; but the ambition to be a steamboatman always remained. --Mark Twain Style by Williams (Plain Style): Nonafflink: http://www.amazon.com/Style-Clarity-Chicago-Writing-Publishing/dp/0226899152/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272401237&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Style-Clarity-Chicago-Writing-Publishi... Example: After Peter the Great died, seven out of eight reigns of the Romanov line were plagued by turmoil over disputed succession to the throne. -- Williams edit to uncredited work on Russia