4 ms·

I don't have a dog in this show, but wouldn't that be quite reasonable/expected if they are skewed towards Republican/Trump?

snewk 10y ago
i think the bigger question in wake of hillary's missing landslide, is whether facebook may actually be classifying CNN et. al. as 'fake' news.
- tomp 10y ago
  A better example would be NYT or WSJ, as CNN is obviously fake news [1]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/10/17/remember-its-illegal-to-possess-wikileaks-clinton-emails-but-its-different-for-the-media-says-cnns-chris-cuomo/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...
- serge2k 10y ago
  Poor polling data doesn't mean you are publishing fake news.
tomp 10y ago
Not according to my logic, no. If I wanted a candidate to win, I'd imagine it would be better for me to propagandize predictions that my candidate would lose, as to motivate more of his/her supporters to actually vote.
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  according to your logic then the MSM is all biased for trump and breitbart is biased for hillary. sounds legit.
  - cderwin 10y ago
    I don't agree with tomp's reasoning but you are confusing cause and effect. If tomp is correct, it only implies that a news outlet biased towards one candidate would predict a victory for the other, not that every media outlet predicts a victory a candidate they are biased against.
  - candiodari 10y ago
    Because of extreme amounts of arrogance on the democratic side, this is actually what happened. It's the same as you hear from Russians. If something's in any big newspaper, it is (a) fake (b) it is rather obvious what the truth is I'm not saying this is the level the MSM has dropped to, but it most certainly is where it's going. I'd also like to say that this is what's happening to large media worldwide, and is in fact being used to marginalize the victims of the current economic climate. Exactly what leftists SHOULD NOT do, if anything they should err on the side of the poor. http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/14/opinions/america-doing-better-bailey/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/14/opinions/america-doing-bet... (and 1000s other articles) vs http://www.wsj.com/articles/election-2016-is-propelled-by-the-american-economys-failed-promises-1467909580 http://www.wsj.com/articles/election-2016-is-propelled-by-th... and the "fake news" version of it https://www.videoblocks.com/video/detroit-ghetto-driving-1-driving-through-an-economically-depressed-neighborhood-of-detroit-michigan-many-houses-boarded-up-and-abandoned-some-still-occupied-but-very-run-down-this-area-is-just-to-the-east-of-the-abandoned-packard-factory-dtk9ysm/ https://www.videoblocks.com/video/detroit-ghetto-driving-1-d... Now read the Hillary articles again, assuming you 100% believe the above links and what they mean about the MSM. I think you'll understand better what is happening. Frankly the MSM lies about economic facts that are very much in the face of a hell of a lot of people, and that causes people to not trust them anymore. This seems natural, and ... censorship of fake news will make this worse, not better (or better put: I have enough Russian friends and stories from them certainly indicate it will). But as someone who regularly visits Middle/Eastern Europe but does not live there I see the same thing. I read the newspapers and ... I just don't believe them. The difference with the country I see when visiting is too great. Online fora, filled with locals are easy to find and while filtering absolutely is a necessity, they are generally telling the truth. There are areas where it is worse, e.g. immigrants (and whether or not a particular town was seriously damaged/looted during a "protest" march), but it is certainly true in general. And yes, these fora do not put forward the view the American left has of the world. They don't like immigrants (too many stories of looting, extremely poor work ethic, attacks, criminal behavior, ... combined with stories of the government working against the victims. It is extremely hard to not believe all of them when you've had 2 friends tell you one. In confidence, because they were afraid of retaliation at work. I think that's one thing people don't realize. The main fake news, in terms of reach, are sites like reddit, and it's country-local alternatives. But the story goes like this: they had rented a "work" apartment, a place to sleep close to work for during the week, avoiding a commute after a long day at work. Work is in the middle of the capital city, surrounded by immigrant neighborhoods, so this apartment was in an immigrant neighborhood. They got constantly treated very unfriendly in the hallways, but that, they can take. One day a few obviously muslim youth stormed in, speaking French, screaming to eachother how it's their right to rob kuffar (arabic word meaning infidel in the sense of non-muslim, or cockroach), lots of screaming, obviously high. They broke the tv they were stealing, and beat my friend and his colleague in revenge for that. They had guns, took several macbooks, their cell phones and wallets, beat them up, and took their time to smash up the place. At the hospital they could not see a police officer, they knew where the police office was in the hospital, but there was no-one there that wanted to see them, so they went to the police station 2 days later. The police refused to take down a complaint ... They reported it at work and a director called them in that they were not to talk about it or they'd "face consequences", as those assholes say. Why ? Because nothing good could come of this. Either the story dies and they'll be frustrated, or the story gets attention ... and, the director felt, city hall would be mad, and there might even be an attack on the hospital in revenge for the story. And just so we're clear, I know these people. This happened, in the sense that I know one of the 2 people this happened to. Now this is one data point, and I get it, it's not like crime is new to that part of town (violent crime like that is, though, pickpocketing is what it used to be). It's the reaction to it that makes me believe a lot of far right nuttery. If you read the newspapers, you'd think this was a harmonious neighborhood with everyone living together peacefully. Regular initiatives and public displays about how integrated everyone is, but, and this is important, a drive through it will make it incredibly obvious that there is exactly one ethnic group living there, or if others are living there, they're certainly not willing to show their faces on the street. The neighborhood has a reputation that women cannot go there and you should, under no circumstances, take your girlfriend there, but as a man you can eat there, eat well, and cheap (and there's lots of businesses where one might work nearby, including a huge hospital), but don't take expensive phones or a wallet with either your ID or more money than you'd need to eat. There are no businesses, not a single one, that is owned by anyone from even a slightly different ethnic group.
rdtsc 10y ago
Never followed or watched Breitbart, but CNN and friends presented it as a poll, presumably done with rigor and impartiality. Either they couldn't afford to pay their statisticans or they deliberately fudged them and lied.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  > Either they couldn't afford to pay their statisticans or they deliberately fudged them and lied. So it's only those two options? It's not possible that the polling was just flawed or wrong but it's they can't pay them (implying they have shit statisticians) or they lied? Not a fan of most of the media but come on there are more options here. It was a tough election to predict. Bringing in two, fairly unpopular candidates is going to create some interesting results.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    > So it's only those two options? The implication was that they fudged their data to make a candidate look better. Clearly they have the money to pay for the poll and statisticians. The more I think about the more it is seems one of the reason for the loss was this overconfidence. News channels were often way too happy to put up a map with Hillary in the 400+ points and the whole map being blue. They believed that would just discourage those voting for Trump to show up. In their it was a terrible blunder (or win depending who you support), in the end more people who would have voted for the Democrats stayed home.
    - hga 10y ago
      Overconfidence is certainly a story we're getting out of the Clinton campaign; WRT to the Rust Belt where she decisively lost the election: Bill's advice to put effort into was ridiculed. Russ Feingold, who was as far as I know honestly expected to win his election for Senator (note he'd just lost the seat 6 years earlier in the off-season 2010 Republican langslide), desperately asked for help towards the end of the campaign and was ignored. It's been reported that a computer system named Ada was driving pretty much all these sorts of decisions, and it said the Rust Belt was safe. And there are some other things I think I'm forgetting this early in the morning, anyway, just how wrong this was is demonstrated by how close Minnesota ended up. If Team Trump had realized the opportunity there earlier and put more resources into it, he might well have won it. That that Democratic (well, DFL) bastion was in play....

snewk 10y ago

i think the bigger question in wake of hillary's missing landslide, is whether facebook may actually be classifying CNN et. al. as 'fake' news.

tomp 10y ago
A better example would be NYT or WSJ, as CNN is obviously fake news [1]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/10/17/remember-its-illegal-to-possess-wikileaks-clinton-emails-but-its-different-for-the-media-says-cnns-chris-cuomo/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...
serge2k 10y ago
Poor polling data doesn't mean you are publishing fake news.

tomp 10y ago

Not according to my logic, no. If I wanted a candidate to win, I'd imagine it would be better for me to propagandize predictions that my candidate would lose, as to motivate more of his/her supporters to actually vote.

thesimpsons1022 10y ago
according to your logic then the MSM is all biased for trump and breitbart is biased for hillary. sounds legit.
- cderwin 10y ago
  I don't agree with tomp's reasoning but you are confusing cause and effect. If tomp is correct, it only implies that a news outlet biased towards one candidate would predict a victory for the other, not that every media outlet predicts a victory a candidate they are biased against.
- candiodari 10y ago
  Because of extreme amounts of arrogance on the democratic side, this is actually what happened. It's the same as you hear from Russians. If something's in any big newspaper, it is (a) fake (b) it is rather obvious what the truth is I'm not saying this is the level the MSM has dropped to, but it most certainly is where it's going. I'd also like to say that this is what's happening to large media worldwide, and is in fact being used to marginalize the victims of the current economic climate. Exactly what leftists SHOULD NOT do, if anything they should err on the side of the poor. http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/14/opinions/america-doing-better-bailey/ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/14/opinions/america-doing-bet... (and 1000s other articles) vs http://www.wsj.com/articles/election-2016-is-propelled-by-the-american-economys-failed-promises-1467909580 http://www.wsj.com/articles/election-2016-is-propelled-by-th... and the "fake news" version of it https://www.videoblocks.com/video/detroit-ghetto-driving-1-driving-through-an-economically-depressed-neighborhood-of-detroit-michigan-many-houses-boarded-up-and-abandoned-some-still-occupied-but-very-run-down-this-area-is-just-to-the-east-of-the-abandoned-packard-factory-dtk9ysm/ https://www.videoblocks.com/video/detroit-ghetto-driving-1-d... Now read the Hillary articles again, assuming you 100% believe the above links and what they mean about the MSM. I think you'll understand better what is happening. Frankly the MSM lies about economic facts that are very much in the face of a hell of a lot of people, and that causes people to not trust them anymore. This seems natural, and ... censorship of fake news will make this worse, not better (or better put: I have enough Russian friends and stories from them certainly indicate it will). But as someone who regularly visits Middle/Eastern Europe but does not live there I see the same thing. I read the newspapers and ... I just don't believe them. The difference with the country I see when visiting is too great. Online fora, filled with locals are easy to find and while filtering absolutely is a necessity, they are generally telling the truth. There are areas where it is worse, e.g. immigrants (and whether or not a particular town was seriously damaged/looted during a "protest" march), but it is certainly true in general. And yes, these fora do not put forward the view the American left has of the world. They don't like immigrants (too many stories of looting, extremely poor work ethic, attacks, criminal behavior, ... combined with stories of the government working against the victims. It is extremely hard to not believe all of them when you've had 2 friends tell you one. In confidence, because they were afraid of retaliation at work. I think that's one thing people don't realize. The main fake news, in terms of reach, are sites like reddit, and it's country-local alternatives. But the story goes like this: they had rented a "work" apartment, a place to sleep close to work for during the week, avoiding a commute after a long day at work. Work is in the middle of the capital city, surrounded by immigrant neighborhoods, so this apartment was in an immigrant neighborhood. They got constantly treated very unfriendly in the hallways, but that, they can take. One day a few obviously muslim youth stormed in, speaking French, screaming to eachother how it's their right to rob kuffar (arabic word meaning infidel in the sense of non-muslim, or cockroach), lots of screaming, obviously high. They broke the tv they were stealing, and beat my friend and his colleague in revenge for that. They had guns, took several macbooks, their cell phones and wallets, beat them up, and took their time to smash up the place. At the hospital they could not see a police officer, they knew where the police office was in the hospital, but there was no-one there that wanted to see them, so they went to the police station 2 days later. The police refused to take down a complaint ... They reported it at work and a director called them in that they were not to talk about it or they'd "face consequences", as those assholes say. Why ? Because nothing good could come of this. Either the story dies and they'll be frustrated, or the story gets attention ... and, the director felt, city hall would be mad, and there might even be an attack on the hospital in revenge for the story. And just so we're clear, I know these people. This happened, in the sense that I know one of the 2 people this happened to. Now this is one data point, and I get it, it's not like crime is new to that part of town (violent crime like that is, though, pickpocketing is what it used to be). It's the reaction to it that makes me believe a lot of far right nuttery. If you read the newspapers, you'd think this was a harmonious neighborhood with everyone living together peacefully. Regular initiatives and public displays about how integrated everyone is, but, and this is important, a drive through it will make it incredibly obvious that there is exactly one ethnic group living there, or if others are living there, they're certainly not willing to show their faces on the street. The neighborhood has a reputation that women cannot go there and you should, under no circumstances, take your girlfriend there, but as a man you can eat there, eat well, and cheap (and there's lots of businesses where one might work nearby, including a huge hospital), but don't take expensive phones or a wallet with either your ID or more money than you'd need to eat. There are no businesses, not a single one, that is owned by anyone from even a slightly different ethnic group.

rdtsc 10y ago

Never followed or watched Breitbart, but CNN and friends presented it as a poll, presumably done with rigor and impartiality. Either they couldn't afford to pay their statisticans or they deliberately fudged them and lied.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
> Either they couldn't afford to pay their statisticans or they deliberately fudged them and lied. So it's only those two options? It's not possible that the polling was just flawed or wrong but it's they can't pay them (implying they have shit statisticians) or they lied? Not a fan of most of the media but come on there are more options here. It was a tough election to predict. Bringing in two, fairly unpopular candidates is going to create some interesting results.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  > So it's only those two options? The implication was that they fudged their data to make a candidate look better. Clearly they have the money to pay for the poll and statisticians. The more I think about the more it is seems one of the reason for the loss was this overconfidence. News channels were often way too happy to put up a map with Hillary in the 400+ points and the whole map being blue. They believed that would just discourage those voting for Trump to show up. In their it was a terrible blunder (or win depending who you support), in the end more people who would have voted for the Democrats stayed home.
  - hga 10y ago
    Overconfidence is certainly a story we're getting out of the Clinton campaign; WRT to the Rust Belt where she decisively lost the election: Bill's advice to put effort into was ridiculed. Russ Feingold, who was as far as I know honestly expected to win his election for Senator (note he'd just lost the seat 6 years earlier in the off-season 2010 Republican langslide), desperately asked for help towards the end of the campaign and was ignored. It's been reported that a computer system named Ada was driving pretty much all these sorts of decisions, and it said the Rust Belt was safe. And there are some other things I think I'm forgetting this early in the morning, anyway, just how wrong this was is demonstrated by how close Minnesota ended up. If Team Trump had realized the opportunity there earlier and put more resources into it, he might well have won it. That that Democratic (well, DFL) bastion was in play....