4 ms·

I agree it is not reasonable to say Milo is a white supremacist, in fact they seem to hate him. This says something, I think, about how the term alt right is u

by jshevek 10y ago

I agree it is not reasonable to say Milo is a white supremacist, in fact they seem to hate him. This says something, I think, about how the term alt right is used. While white supremacists coined the term, they clearly don't own it anymore. Whomever Milo is the leader of, they don't overlap well with white supremacists. alt-right.

throwanem 10y ago
They hate him, all right. He's half Jewish. That's enough. Did white supremacists coin the term, though? I haven't been able to substantiate that, either.
- jshevek 10y ago
  I definitely shouldn't have said 'coined', since coining usually refers to the first time that the term is used in a particular way. I have no idea if white nationalists coined the term. I meant to say: 'brought the term to a level of prevalence such that their definition for the word is the most common usage', but even with that watered-down concept of "coining", I don't even know for certain that this is correct - that it was white nationalists who first did this.
  - internaut 10y ago
    Spencer is not a white supremacist (he says) but a white nationalist. He was the one who coined the term alt-right. I'm positive Milo is a patriotic Yiannopoulos Supremacist. I don't think either of the two would be eligible to join Aryan Brotherhood or any group of genuine article white supremacists. I think the distinction between 'nationalist' and 'supremacist' should be sharply defined. Mixing the terms is like using socialism and communism interchangeably. I myself am NRX but not any kind of nationalist because I believe that model for determining an in-group is too hit and miss. Don't forget that nation state nationalism is mostly a 20th century phenomenon. Note the paradox of nationalists working together across borders, classical nationalism is going meta.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      > I'm positive Milo is a patriotic Yiannopoulos Supremacist. Oh, to be sure! All gay men are narcissistic to some degree, and Milo I think more than most. He uses the trait, though, rather than letting it use him, and he's been doing God's work since before it was cool. > Note the paradox of nationalists working together across borders, classical nationalism is going meta. Is that so paradoxical? History is replete with examples of nations allying for mutual benefit without dilution of anyone's sovereignty. As far as in-group determination goes, I'm not sure I see why it can't be made to work on roughly the lines of the classical American model - that is, a privilege earned in exchange for bringing specific and substantial value. A lot of countries do this even today, usually under the rubric of some kind of points system. Such schemes have been slandered in the US under the name of "immigration quotas", but, again, this has occurred as a matter of political expediency - one cannot, after all, import captive voters by the million in the presence of such a system. It worked for us for many years - those of my ancestors who weren't transportees earned their citizenship that way. It works for many countries today. It could very easily be made to work for us again. > I think the distinction between 'nationalist' and 'supremacist' should be sharply defined. It is sharply defined. But in a political environment where nuance is anathema, no one pays the distinction much heed. Progressives equate the concepts for reasons of political utility, and their narrative has such hegemonic power that even rejecting this bogus prior for what it is takes some effort of reason and will. To try to convince anyone else on the matter is much harder still. (And ethnic nationalism, or supremacism, or whatever you want to call it, complicates the issue still further by being for the most part a lot of damnfoolishness. What matters is culture, not race. Regarding the latter as metonymous of the former indicates a failure to have fully thought the matter through.) Well. Their narrative had such hegemonic power, anyway. That's taken quite a blow in the last couple of weeks, and whatever else comes of a Trump presidency, that by itself strikes me as worthwhile. It won't be easy, I think, for anyone to unring that bell. My immediate concern is that we start working to reduce the breaches their quest for power has driven into our polity, rather than crowbarring them still wider. Notwithstanding Schumeresque tantrums about Toronto, we all still have to live with one another. That progressives have so forgotten this is all the more reason for us to bear it firmly in mind. Let us comport ourselves so as to earn the favorable judgment of history, and the rest will attend to itself. Let us do otherwise, and a generation from now our kids will be fighting the same damn war in the same damn trenches.
vuanotino 10y ago
The alt right is a huge umbrella. Milo is a Jewish sodomite who likes to cross dress, so it's understandable some people of the alt right loathe him. He's seen by some as a Trojan horse.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > The alt right is a huge umbrella. Too huge - Daily Stormer neo-Nazi scum are exactly the same kind of problem for the alt-right that NAMBLA used to be for the gay rights movement.
  - vuanotino 10y ago
    The Right Stuff is funnier nowadays ;-)
    - throwanem 10y ago
      Just so we're clear, I chose the word "scum" carefully, and the equation with child molesters even more so. I indulge on occasion in hyperbole. This is not such an occasion.
      - vuanotino 10y ago
        You equating white nationalists to child molesters leads me to think you haven't been very careful with your words.
        throwanem 10y ago
        No, I'm pretty much okay with that. I mean, I guess there's no reason to suppose a correlation above coincidence between neo-Nazi stupidity and actual child molesting, but in terms of bringing nothing but uselessness and image damage to a larger movement which actually does have value, NAMBLA and neo-Nazis are indistinguishable. At this point, considering the amount of political hay the progressive media is making out of those assholes, I'm coming more and more to suspect that they're the Trojan horses. False-flagging is a time-honored tactic on the left, after all, and considering the recent testing of the waters toward a "reevaluation" of pedophilia as a sexual orientation harmless in its own right, there is literally no better ideological weapon imaginable against the alt-right than to be able to paint it as a modern resurgence of Nazi fascism. On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine there actually are some people out there dumb enough to assume that anything progressives think is bad must ipso facto therefore be good. Hanlon's razor applies here as everywhere else, of course, but even in that case, the very kindest accurate description of "alt-right" neo-Nazis would be as useful idiots.

by jshevek 10y ago

throwanem 10y ago

They hate him, all right. He's half Jewish. That's enough. Did white supremacists coin the term, though? I haven't been able to substantiate that, either.

jshevek 10y ago
I definitely shouldn't have said 'coined', since coining usually refers to the first time that the term is used in a particular way. I have no idea if white nationalists coined the term. I meant to say: 'brought the term to a level of prevalence such that their definition for the word is the most common usage', but even with that watered-down concept of "coining", I don't even know for certain that this is correct - that it was white nationalists who first did this.
- internaut 10y ago
  Spencer is not a white supremacist (he says) but a white nationalist. He was the one who coined the term alt-right. I'm positive Milo is a patriotic Yiannopoulos Supremacist. I don't think either of the two would be eligible to join Aryan Brotherhood or any group of genuine article white supremacists. I think the distinction between 'nationalist' and 'supremacist' should be sharply defined. Mixing the terms is like using socialism and communism interchangeably. I myself am NRX but not any kind of nationalist because I believe that model for determining an in-group is too hit and miss. Don't forget that nation state nationalism is mostly a 20th century phenomenon. Note the paradox of nationalists working together across borders, classical nationalism is going meta.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > I'm positive Milo is a patriotic Yiannopoulos Supremacist. Oh, to be sure! All gay men are narcissistic to some degree, and Milo I think more than most. He uses the trait, though, rather than letting it use him, and he's been doing God's work since before it was cool. > Note the paradox of nationalists working together across borders, classical nationalism is going meta. Is that so paradoxical? History is replete with examples of nations allying for mutual benefit without dilution of anyone's sovereignty. As far as in-group determination goes, I'm not sure I see why it can't be made to work on roughly the lines of the classical American model - that is, a privilege earned in exchange for bringing specific and substantial value. A lot of countries do this even today, usually under the rubric of some kind of points system. Such schemes have been slandered in the US under the name of "immigration quotas", but, again, this has occurred as a matter of political expediency - one cannot, after all, import captive voters by the million in the presence of such a system. It worked for us for many years - those of my ancestors who weren't transportees earned their citizenship that way. It works for many countries today. It could very easily be made to work for us again. > I think the distinction between 'nationalist' and 'supremacist' should be sharply defined. It is sharply defined. But in a political environment where nuance is anathema, no one pays the distinction much heed. Progressives equate the concepts for reasons of political utility, and their narrative has such hegemonic power that even rejecting this bogus prior for what it is takes some effort of reason and will. To try to convince anyone else on the matter is much harder still. (And ethnic nationalism, or supremacism, or whatever you want to call it, complicates the issue still further by being for the most part a lot of damnfoolishness. What matters is culture, not race. Regarding the latter as metonymous of the former indicates a failure to have fully thought the matter through.) Well. Their narrative had such hegemonic power, anyway. That's taken quite a blow in the last couple of weeks, and whatever else comes of a Trump presidency, that by itself strikes me as worthwhile. It won't be easy, I think, for anyone to unring that bell. My immediate concern is that we start working to reduce the breaches their quest for power has driven into our polity, rather than crowbarring them still wider. Notwithstanding Schumeresque tantrums about Toronto, we all still have to live with one another. That progressives have so forgotten this is all the more reason for us to bear it firmly in mind. Let us comport ourselves so as to earn the favorable judgment of history, and the rest will attend to itself. Let us do otherwise, and a generation from now our kids will be fighting the same damn war in the same damn trenches.

vuanotino 10y ago

The alt right is a huge umbrella. Milo is a Jewish sodomite who likes to cross dress, so it's understandable some people of the alt right loathe him. He's seen by some as a Trojan horse.

throwanem 10y ago
> The alt right is a huge umbrella. Too huge - Daily Stormer neo-Nazi scum are exactly the same kind of problem for the alt-right that NAMBLA used to be for the gay rights movement.
- vuanotino 10y ago
  The Right Stuff is funnier nowadays ;-)
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Just so we're clear, I chose the word "scum" carefully, and the equation with child molesters even more so. I indulge on occasion in hyperbole. This is not such an occasion.
    - vuanotino 10y ago
      You equating white nationalists to child molesters leads me to think you haven't been very careful with your words.
      - throwanem 10y ago
        No, I'm pretty much okay with that. I mean, I guess there's no reason to suppose a correlation above coincidence between neo-Nazi stupidity and actual child molesting, but in terms of bringing nothing but uselessness and image damage to a larger movement which actually does have value, NAMBLA and neo-Nazis are indistinguishable. At this point, considering the amount of political hay the progressive media is making out of those assholes, I'm coming more and more to suspect that they're the Trojan horses. False-flagging is a time-honored tactic on the left, after all, and considering the recent testing of the waters toward a "reevaluation" of pedophilia as a sexual orientation harmless in its own right, there is literally no better ideological weapon imaginable against the alt-right than to be able to paint it as a modern resurgence of Nazi fascism. On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine there actually are some people out there dumb enough to assume that anything progressives think is bad must ipso facto therefore be good. Hanlon's razor applies here as everywhere else, of course, but even in that case, the very kindest accurate description of "alt-right" neo-Nazis would be as useful idiots.