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Yeah, good point. That is a kind of terrifying idea. They are, to a degree, accountable to their users, but other than that ... And it's quickly getting to the

by jessep 16y ago

Yeah, good point. That is a kind of terrifying idea. They are, to a degree, accountable to their users, but other than that ... And it's quickly getting to the point where they have monopoly style lockin. I guess it feels to me, honestly, like they're already there. At that point they're barely even accountable to their users. Like you said, they're not bad people, and they make a fantastic product, but it's still scary.

jmm 16y ago
Accountable to users is a HUGE point. What happens to a site when users feel alienated or violated or whatever? Those users begin to walk away towards an emergent alternative. The facebook "lock in" isn't a lock in at all. It's more like a disincentive to walk away from the user base, media storage, and slickness of the service. But that can be reproduced if need be, I think. I think there are better things to be worried about than the hypothetical situation where Zuck goes nuts.
- Groxx 16y ago
  Non-exportable data is pretty much the definition of a lock-in. There's essentially nothing that's impossible to walk away from, so the only thing worth considering is getting out what you put in. In terms of a social application, it's legitimately harder to make a not-locked-in service. Who owns what, and how much of it is valid when you transfer data to another host? But it's still a lock-in, because there's no way to leave and retain things. Imagine if your phone would only export contacts to a new phone if you stayed with your provider. Sure, you can still leave, but a data-lock-in is still a lock-in technique.
  - jmm 16y ago
    Soft lock in? I don't know... I guess I'm being a bit literal with the term "lock." It's not binary (literally handcuffed or not), but more of a continuum taking into account the cost of moving away. So sure, I guess I missed that. And though I realize others may feel differently, I'm of the mindset that the costs are relatively low in walking away from facebook without my data. I have all my pictures anyway. Other peoples' pictures of me? Na... I don't own them. Statuses, messages, connections, likes, events? Sayonara without qualms.
    - whatusername 16y ago
      exactly. It's not my data that binds me to facebook. It's the fact my friends are all there.
    - Groxx 16y ago
      I think a lot of people define a lock-in as a monetary lock-in. You can't leave without spending X dollars to terminate early. But given the time to re-do a large portion of your data on FB (assuming you've used it a fair amount, as many people on it do), at minimum wage, it's probably nearly as "expensive" to leave FB as to switch cell phone providers. I know it's not a 1-to-1 comparison at all, and I've deleted my account and felt no loss. But my use of FB was incredibly minimal compared to most of my friends who are on it, and I hear "I hate Facebook, but everyone is on it" echoed from nearly everyone I encounter.
  - harshavr 16y ago
    If there is a real need, wont scraping toools with easy interfaces be developed by competitors to allow a user to get personal data out while migrating? Its the user's data after all. Lock-in due to the usefulness of friend info might still be significant, though.
    - Groxx 16y ago
      The constantly-changing UI could be considered a way of preventing such tools. Plus, I believe their TOS explicitly states that you can't use scraping tools, and a huge spike of activity would set off red flags. Running it for weeks / months is a massive disincentive to most potential users, so it effectively must complete quickly or it won't be used. Besides, developing a robust screen scraping tool for a system as large as FB is inherently a very difficult task, and you still need to connect everything you get out, essentially re-building FB. For them to provide an export tool, however, would be ridiculously easy by comparison.
pwntifex 16y ago
Those are my sentiments too. I'm scared for one company to have that much power, but they do make a great product and have great tools to leverage it. I'm most likely going to transition to facebook-only logins on my sites off the platform. The social discovery advantages are just too large.
- jessep 16y ago
  yeah, i'm also moving toward facebook only auth.

by jessep 16y ago

jmm 16y ago

Accountable to users is a HUGE point. What happens to a site when users feel alienated or violated or whatever? Those users begin to walk away towards an emergent alternative. The facebook "lock in" isn't a lock in at all. It's more like a disincentive to walk away from the user base, media storage, and slickness of the service. But that can be reproduced if need be, I think. I think there are better things to be worried about than the hypothetical situation where Zuck goes nuts.

Groxx 16y ago
Non-exportable data is pretty much the definition of a lock-in. There's essentially nothing that's impossible to walk away from, so the only thing worth considering is getting out what you put in. In terms of a social application, it's legitimately harder to make a not-locked-in service. Who owns what, and how much of it is valid when you transfer data to another host? But it's still a lock-in, because there's no way to leave and retain things. Imagine if your phone would only export contacts to a new phone if you stayed with your provider. Sure, you can still leave, but a data-lock-in is still a lock-in technique.
- jmm 16y ago
  Soft lock in? I don't know... I guess I'm being a bit literal with the term "lock." It's not binary (literally handcuffed or not), but more of a continuum taking into account the cost of moving away. So sure, I guess I missed that. And though I realize others may feel differently, I'm of the mindset that the costs are relatively low in walking away from facebook without my data. I have all my pictures anyway. Other peoples' pictures of me? Na... I don't own them. Statuses, messages, connections, likes, events? Sayonara without qualms.
  - whatusername 16y ago
    exactly. It's not my data that binds me to facebook. It's the fact my friends are all there.
  - Groxx 16y ago
    I think a lot of people define a lock-in as a monetary lock-in. You can't leave without spending X dollars to terminate early. But given the time to re-do a large portion of your data on FB (assuming you've used it a fair amount, as many people on it do), at minimum wage, it's probably nearly as "expensive" to leave FB as to switch cell phone providers. I know it's not a 1-to-1 comparison at all, and I've deleted my account and felt no loss. But my use of FB was incredibly minimal compared to most of my friends who are on it, and I hear "I hate Facebook, but everyone is on it" echoed from nearly everyone I encounter.
- harshavr 16y ago
  If there is a real need, wont scraping toools with easy interfaces be developed by competitors to allow a user to get personal data out while migrating? Its the user's data after all. Lock-in due to the usefulness of friend info might still be significant, though.
  - Groxx 16y ago
    The constantly-changing UI could be considered a way of preventing such tools. Plus, I believe their TOS explicitly states that you can't use scraping tools, and a huge spike of activity would set off red flags. Running it for weeks / months is a massive disincentive to most potential users, so it effectively must complete quickly or it won't be used. Besides, developing a robust screen scraping tool for a system as large as FB is inherently a very difficult task, and you still need to connect everything you get out, essentially re-building FB. For them to provide an export tool, however, would be ridiculously easy by comparison.

pwntifex 16y ago

Those are my sentiments too. I'm scared for one company to have that much power, but they do make a great product and have great tools to leverage it. I'm most likely going to transition to facebook-only logins on my sites off the platform. The social discovery advantages are just too large.

jessep 16y ago
yeah, i'm also moving toward facebook only auth.