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And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availab

by tirant 10y ago

And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availability, Unemployment insurance, Retirement Funds, Disability Support :)

ryanSrich 10y ago
So by some magical force all those things are free? Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.
- FordPrefectAO 10y ago
  Consider it part of your total package, and your reduction in pay is offset by this
- richardwhiuk 10y ago
  They are often taken from the companies cost to hire you before you see the number. e.g. if the company pays you 100K, they may have to pay the government 10K a year in tax which pays for the services, whereas in America you may be paid 120K and then have to fork over 20K for those services (all numbers are made up obviously).
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    In Germany it is rather a rule of thumb that the company has to pay the same amount to you as to other instituations (social security contributions, pensions office, long-term care insurance, health insurance etc.).
- prophet_ 10y ago
  Check tax rate in countries like the Netherlands. I cannot complain about what I get here for that money, though. I think people coming from a "sunny", southern countries (like me) would mostly have other things to get used to rather than tax itself.
- geebee 10y ago
  Child care in SF, if you really need the full time kind that allows you to work full time (but not overtime) is going to run you about $2,500 a month. Two kids, you are looking at like $60k a year in childcare. If you have a family on an employer healthcare plan, you will likely have to cover some of it from your paycheck, $6k a year wouldn't be too unusual. Keep in mind, you'll still be the person who absolutely has to stop at 5:30, because you can't leave your kid at daycare. Tech companies may try to solve this by avoiding employees with families and kids. "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical.. I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  Have you by chance had children and experienced the expense of childcare, education, and healthcare? It is incredibly expensive.
  - ryanSrich 10y ago
    Public education in America is covered by taxes. If you're referring to college then that's on your kid. Parents have no obligation to pay for their child's college education. Healthcare costs in the US are always blown out of proportion. No one is paying $30k for surgery out of pocket unless they don't have insurance, which is now against the law anyway. At most, people are paying $1k per month for a large family, and that's only if your employer is cheap. If you're a middle class tech worker it's likely you pay very little for healthcare if anything at all.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      And you do realize people are choosing to pay the penalty instead of health insurance because they can't afford the premiums, correct? It isn't even against the law, you just get a flat tax for doing so. The problem isn't as much the surgeries, as some of them couldn't qualify without a way to pay. But can't afford prescriptions or to go to the doctor as they should.
    - bobwaycott 10y ago
      I find it interesting that you did not answer the question, but doubled down on speaking authoritatively about things you seem to not experience yourself. Childcare for pre-kindergarten aged children is incredibly expensive. If you have more than one child, it is even more so. Even with one, a parent is likely to spend several hundred dollars per month on childcare during work hours. Public education in a vast many school districts is not covered by taxes. There are school fees parents must pay at public schools. Then there are supply lists, where parents have to go out and buy supplies for their students and their classmates, all of which go to the teacher because the funding doesn't cover having adequate classroom supplies for instruction and activities. Then there are the actual supplies you fill a kid's backpack with. And even that doesn't cover all the needs, so every public school pushes fundraising activities onto the students (and their parents) throughout the year. Add on to that that work hours do not match up with school hours, so most parents add on additional daily childcare costs to have their children at school before school starts, and after it ends until they can leave work to pick up their child. As far as college is concerned, you're sounding definitively like a non-parent. Most kids aren't ready, no matter how much you try to prepare them, to wake up after high school graduation and tackle college funding on their own. And if you're looking out for your child's financial future, you're likely to encourage them to avoid student loans—because you're still paying on yours and are wanting to help them avoid being in their 30s with kids, paying for that college degree that maybe helped them find a job that pays enough to cover all the expenses of having a family. I know few parents who say, "Well, high school is over, and you're 18 now. Abracadabra, there's the door, good luck!" If you're lucky to have an employer providing health insurance, sure, you may luck out with a decent plan. But far too many working parents don't have this. Then there are fees to pay for each doctor visit, well-child checkups, and OTC or prescription medications for when the kids get sick—and, being weaponized factories of horrible nastiness who spend their entire days around other such buckets of grossness, they will get sick. If you actually have children, and don't experience what the vast majority of American parents experience, you're incredibly lucky. Many parents would love to have childcare, education, and healthcare fully covered by their taxes. If they woke up tomorrow and had all these things available to them, I'd be willing to place a large bet they'd never want to go back to anything less—even if it meant mildly lower wages that were at least able to go toward everything else in life. Parents still need to have enough money for food, clothes, birthdays, holidays, vacations, extracurricular activities, sports, and so on—whatever they determine to be part of the life they want to provide their children.
- r00fus 10y ago
  That "magical" force is called effective governance.
- taurath 10y ago
  Add to that the disparity of food, housing cost. Its FAR FAR lower in countries I've visited, even in downtown cores, and the quality on both are generally better despite being cheaper. I'd argue you can live a far better, less stressed and more fulfilling lifestyle in most countries in the EU on 1/3rd of the income as in the US.
  - hiram112 10y ago
    I did not find this to be the case at all when I lived in Germany (Hesse), though being paid in US dollars for a US firm. I would say the prices of food were at least as high as in the US, and while apartments were not SF expensive, but probably more like a small Midwestern city. Not having a car in the medium sized German city I lived in was not the deal breaker it would have been in the US, but it still was a pain. It didn't seem like the trains were really that cheap, and we also have busses in most US cities. So in the end, I don't think living in Germany or similar at a salary equal to $50k is as nearly as good of deal as working in the Midwest US for $100k or the coasts for $150k. I'd be better off working here, living frugally a fear years, and then just taking the savings and go on an adventure without worrying about all the visa issues.

by tirant 10y ago

ryanSrich 10y ago

So by some magical force all those things are free? Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.

FordPrefectAO 10y ago
Consider it part of your total package, and your reduction in pay is offset by this
richardwhiuk 10y ago
They are often taken from the companies cost to hire you before you see the number. e.g. if the company pays you 100K, they may have to pay the government 10K a year in tax which pays for the services, whereas in America you may be paid 120K and then have to fork over 20K for those services (all numbers are made up obviously).
- wolfgke 10y ago
  In Germany it is rather a rule of thumb that the company has to pay the same amount to you as to other instituations (social security contributions, pensions office, long-term care insurance, health insurance etc.).
prophet_ 10y ago
Check tax rate in countries like the Netherlands. I cannot complain about what I get here for that money, though. I think people coming from a "sunny", southern countries (like me) would mostly have other things to get used to rather than tax itself.
geebee 10y ago
Child care in SF, if you really need the full time kind that allows you to work full time (but not overtime) is going to run you about $2,500 a month. Two kids, you are looking at like $60k a year in childcare. If you have a family on an employer healthcare plan, you will likely have to cover some of it from your paycheck, $6k a year wouldn't be too unusual. Keep in mind, you'll still be the person who absolutely has to stop at 5:30, because you can't leave your kid at daycare. Tech companies may try to solve this by avoiding employees with families and kids. "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical.. I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."
bobwaycott 10y ago
Have you by chance had children and experienced the expense of childcare, education, and healthcare? It is incredibly expensive.
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  Public education in America is covered by taxes. If you're referring to college then that's on your kid. Parents have no obligation to pay for their child's college education. Healthcare costs in the US are always blown out of proportion. No one is paying $30k for surgery out of pocket unless they don't have insurance, which is now against the law anyway. At most, people are paying $1k per month for a large family, and that's only if your employer is cheap. If you're a middle class tech worker it's likely you pay very little for healthcare if anything at all.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    And you do realize people are choosing to pay the penalty instead of health insurance because they can't afford the premiums, correct? It isn't even against the law, you just get a flat tax for doing so. The problem isn't as much the surgeries, as some of them couldn't qualify without a way to pay. But can't afford prescriptions or to go to the doctor as they should.
  - bobwaycott 10y ago
    I find it interesting that you did not answer the question, but doubled down on speaking authoritatively about things you seem to not experience yourself. Childcare for pre-kindergarten aged children is incredibly expensive. If you have more than one child, it is even more so. Even with one, a parent is likely to spend several hundred dollars per month on childcare during work hours. Public education in a vast many school districts is not covered by taxes. There are school fees parents must pay at public schools. Then there are supply lists, where parents have to go out and buy supplies for their students and their classmates, all of which go to the teacher because the funding doesn't cover having adequate classroom supplies for instruction and activities. Then there are the actual supplies you fill a kid's backpack with. And even that doesn't cover all the needs, so every public school pushes fundraising activities onto the students (and their parents) throughout the year. Add on to that that work hours do not match up with school hours, so most parents add on additional daily childcare costs to have their children at school before school starts, and after it ends until they can leave work to pick up their child. As far as college is concerned, you're sounding definitively like a non-parent. Most kids aren't ready, no matter how much you try to prepare them, to wake up after high school graduation and tackle college funding on their own. And if you're looking out for your child's financial future, you're likely to encourage them to avoid student loans—because you're still paying on yours and are wanting to help them avoid being in their 30s with kids, paying for that college degree that maybe helped them find a job that pays enough to cover all the expenses of having a family. I know few parents who say, "Well, high school is over, and you're 18 now. Abracadabra, there's the door, good luck!" If you're lucky to have an employer providing health insurance, sure, you may luck out with a decent plan. But far too many working parents don't have this. Then there are fees to pay for each doctor visit, well-child checkups, and OTC or prescription medications for when the kids get sick—and, being weaponized factories of horrible nastiness who spend their entire days around other such buckets of grossness, they will get sick. If you actually have children, and don't experience what the vast majority of American parents experience, you're incredibly lucky. Many parents would love to have childcare, education, and healthcare fully covered by their taxes. If they woke up tomorrow and had all these things available to them, I'd be willing to place a large bet they'd never want to go back to anything less—even if it meant mildly lower wages that were at least able to go toward everything else in life. Parents still need to have enough money for food, clothes, birthdays, holidays, vacations, extracurricular activities, sports, and so on—whatever they determine to be part of the life they want to provide their children.
r00fus 10y ago
That "magical" force is called effective governance.
taurath 10y ago
Add to that the disparity of food, housing cost. Its FAR FAR lower in countries I've visited, even in downtown cores, and the quality on both are generally better despite being cheaper. I'd argue you can live a far better, less stressed and more fulfilling lifestyle in most countries in the EU on 1/3rd of the income as in the US.
- hiram112 10y ago
  I did not find this to be the case at all when I lived in Germany (Hesse), though being paid in US dollars for a US firm. I would say the prices of food were at least as high as in the US, and while apartments were not SF expensive, but probably more like a small Midwestern city. Not having a car in the medium sized German city I lived in was not the deal breaker it would have been in the US, but it still was a pain. It didn't seem like the trains were really that cheap, and we also have busses in most US cities. So in the end, I don't think living in Germany or similar at a salary equal to $50k is as nearly as good of deal as working in the Midwest US for $100k or the coasts for $150k. I'd be better off working here, living frugally a fear years, and then just taking the savings and go on an adventure without worrying about all the visa issues.