4 ms·

The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. So if ability is there with a candidate, educatio

by gdulli 10y ago

The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. So if ability is there with a candidate, education is irrelevant. Candidate supply and demand has companies removing barriers, not adding them. (At least in the big-city markets I have experience with.) What does the emphasis on education abroad mean? That the supply and demand for developers is inverted relative to the US? Or that they're behind the times and haven't figured out what we've figured out here?

jacalata 10y ago
Education is very relevant if you are applying for an American work visa.
- randomdata 10y ago
  Does it depend on the visa? The TN requirements seem to be not a whole lot more than being from an eligible location and having a business in the US that is eligible and wanting to hire you.
  - jacalata 10y ago
    It does depend in the visa, but TN visas require you to be a qualified professional in a specific career and in most categories that means you need qualifications like an RN or CPA. Even for a programmer a degree will make it easier to get the visa. https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/tn-nafta-professionals https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
oblio 10y ago
From what I've seen related to France at least, they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on formal education. Luckily I have a master's degree but I imagine that getting a job without at least a college degree is quite a bit harder and paid a bit less, unless you're lucky.
wolfgke 10y ago
> The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. To perhaps resolve this contradiction: In Germany you typically are not considered as "talent" if you are self-learnt, only if you have a formal degree (also for blue-collar jobs you do apprenticeship for 2 to 3 years). The mentality really is "if the person is not even able to get a degree/do an apprenticeship" how can he/she an able person. The only exception of this rule if you are self-employed - then it's your problem to find customers. If you are successful as a self-employed person or founder (even though you have no formal degree), you will still be accepted. One reason (beside tradition) might be that in Germany there are strong dismissal protection laws. This means that after a probation period of typically a half year it becomes complicated to fire you. Thus as an employer you really want to go the safe way: It is not sufficient that you are currently good, but also that you are able to learn new things on your own. A university degree is a strong sign that you are able to learn new, complicated things on your own in the future: It is my impression that to get a degree at a typical German university in some STEM subject you are a lot more on your own in terms of learning etc. than at a typical US university.
- taurath 10y ago
  Its a very different culture. College is affordable for most people - in the US it means you're willing to go into a lot of debt or have either well off or poor parents. There's a huge pool of extremely competent people in the US without a degree due to familial reasons.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    From what I have read in the internet the much larger difference is that in Germany there are lots of other ways than going to college/university: As the example with apprenticeship or going to a Fachhochschule (a little bit similar to university, but much more school-like in sense of strict organization and mostly focused on "applied subject"; "Fachhochschule" is often translated with "school of applied science", but I prefer the traditional translation "engineering school", though Fachhochschulen don't offer just degrees in engineering). Fachhochschulen were originally conceived by industry because they complained that at that time they considered the education that universities offered as too theoretical. Also apprenticeships of course finish with a certificate (which is often well-regarded for apprenticeships that are more intellectually challenging) and Fachhochschulen also finish with a degree (though the Fachhochschul degree is considered as "a level below" than a university degree). TLDR: Just because university is affordable in Germany does not imply that most people want to go there. There are lots of other options such as apprenticeships or Fachhochschulen (and some more exotic options that I won't go into) which can be a much better choice. If people in the US complain about the high cost of university/college education: Why don't they simply conceive such alternatives, too?

by gdulli 10y ago

jacalata 10y ago

Education is very relevant if you are applying for an American work visa.

randomdata 10y ago
Does it depend on the visa? The TN requirements seem to be not a whole lot more than being from an eligible location and having a business in the US that is eligible and wanting to hire you.
- jacalata 10y ago
  It does depend in the visa, but TN visas require you to be a qualified professional in a specific career and in most categories that means you need qualifications like an RN or CPA. Even for a programmer a degree will make it easier to get the visa. https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/tn-nafta-professionals https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...

oblio 10y ago

From what I've seen related to France at least, they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on formal education. Luckily I have a master's degree but I imagine that getting a job without at least a college degree is quite a bit harder and paid a bit less, unless you're lucky.

wolfgke 10y ago

> The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. To perhaps resolve this contradiction: In Germany you typically are not considered as "talent" if you are self-learnt, only if you have a formal degree (also for blue-collar jobs you do apprenticeship for 2 to 3 years). The mentality really is "if the person is not even able to get a degree/do an apprenticeship" how can he/she an able person. The only exception of this rule if you are self-employed - then it's your problem to find customers. If you are successful as a self-employed person or founder (even though you have no formal degree), you will still be accepted. One reason (beside tradition) might be that in Germany there are strong dismissal protection laws. This means that after a probation period of typically a half year it becomes complicated to fire you. Thus as an employer you really want to go the safe way: It is not sufficient that you are currently good, but also that you are able to learn new things on your own. A university degree is a strong sign that you are able to learn new, complicated things on your own in the future: It is my impression that to get a degree at a typical German university in some STEM subject you are a lot more on your own in terms of learning etc. than at a typical US university.

taurath 10y ago
Its a very different culture. College is affordable for most people - in the US it means you're willing to go into a lot of debt or have either well off or poor parents. There's a huge pool of extremely competent people in the US without a degree due to familial reasons.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  From what I have read in the internet the much larger difference is that in Germany there are lots of other ways than going to college/university: As the example with apprenticeship or going to a Fachhochschule (a little bit similar to university, but much more school-like in sense of strict organization and mostly focused on "applied subject"; "Fachhochschule" is often translated with "school of applied science", but I prefer the traditional translation "engineering school", though Fachhochschulen don't offer just degrees in engineering). Fachhochschulen were originally conceived by industry because they complained that at that time they considered the education that universities offered as too theoretical. Also apprenticeships of course finish with a certificate (which is often well-regarded for apprenticeships that are more intellectually challenging) and Fachhochschulen also finish with a degree (though the Fachhochschul degree is considered as "a level below" than a university degree). TLDR: Just because university is affordable in Germany does not imply that most people want to go there. There are lots of other options such as apprenticeships or Fachhochschulen (and some more exotic options that I won't go into) which can be a much better choice. If people in the US complain about the high cost of university/college education: Why don't they simply conceive such alternatives, too?