6 ms·

Life hack #1. Be prepared to take a 50-75% pay cut if you're relocating from the US.

geff82 10y ago
In central Europe, make sure to become a contractor as soon as possible working for larger companies. That way you will be back at the old level.
- DasIch 10y ago
  Yeah because you'll get money instead of employee benefits. Money you might be forced by law to spend on things like health insurance. Not to mention the additional effort on your part when it comes to securing contracts, managing taxes, insurance and just overall having less job security.
saganus 10y ago
Why is that? because of wage differences between them or because of some country-specific thing?
- lgieron 10y ago
  In general: lower wages, higher taxes.
tirant 10y ago
And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availability, Unemployment insurance, Retirement Funds, Disability Support :)
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  So by some magical force all those things are free? Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.
  - FordPrefectAO 10y ago
    Consider it part of your total package, and your reduction in pay is offset by this
  - richardwhiuk 10y ago
    They are often taken from the companies cost to hire you before you see the number. e.g. if the company pays you 100K, they may have to pay the government 10K a year in tax which pays for the services, whereas in America you may be paid 120K and then have to fork over 20K for those services (all numbers are made up obviously).
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      In Germany it is rather a rule of thumb that the company has to pay the same amount to you as to other instituations (social security contributions, pensions office, long-term care insurance, health insurance etc.).
  - prophet_ 10y ago
    Check tax rate in countries like the Netherlands. I cannot complain about what I get here for that money, though. I think people coming from a "sunny", southern countries (like me) would mostly have other things to get used to rather than tax itself.
  - geebee 10y ago
    Child care in SF, if you really need the full time kind that allows you to work full time (but not overtime) is going to run you about $2,500 a month. Two kids, you are looking at like $60k a year in childcare. If you have a family on an employer healthcare plan, you will likely have to cover some of it from your paycheck, $6k a year wouldn't be too unusual. Keep in mind, you'll still be the person who absolutely has to stop at 5:30, because you can't leave your kid at daycare. Tech companies may try to solve this by avoiding employees with families and kids. "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical.. I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."
  - 10y ago
davedx 10y ago
Yeesh. Salaries across the US alone vary hugely just within IT. If you're moving from Silicon Valley to Amsterdam, sure, you'll have a pay cut. You'll also have vastly cheaper rent and an awesome quality of life, hardly any commuting hassle, and you almost certainly won't be working 50-80 hour weeks anymore.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
Only it isn't really comparable that way. It is really give and take on that one. If actual money is your goal, you probably want to be really selective. But you might also be able to live a better lifestyle on those wages - or maybe like the culture or something like that. Same sort of consideration folks have when moving from a coast to, say, the midwest (outside of cities). You make less money, have cheaper rent, but gotta have a car.
davidiach 10y ago
One other important thing to realize is that as a software developer you are not only paid worse than in the US, but there are also other subtler differences. In Germany for example, the difference between the median wage for the general population and the median wage for developers is much less pronounces than it is in the US. You should expect to take a cut in terms of social status as well, being a developer in Europe isn't as sexy as it is in the US.
nfriedly 10y ago
Seriously. I just got a recruiter spam email yesterday for a job in London with a salary listed at "up to £45k" (about $55k USD). That's less than half of my current salary in a city with double the cost of living! (I'm in Ohio, but apparently London is even more expensive than SF: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+london+england+vs+san+francisco https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+london+...)
- 0xmohit 10y ago
  Oh, I thought that wolframalpha was limited to maths. Thanks, TIL.
- tom_mellior 10y ago
  For whatever it's worth, Numbeo disagrees: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=London&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- 6t6t6t6 10y ago
  Up to £45k is an offer for an entry level job. If you have experience, you should be looking for £60k or more. London is an amazing city if you can get a good job, otherwise, it can be quite hard to live there.
  - nfriedly 10y ago
    The email said they were looking for a "Senior/Lead" person, but I'm sure you're right in general.
    - 6t6t6t6 10y ago
      They are not going to find a Lead developer for this price. And if they find someone, that person will move to another company after realising how salaries are in London. http://www.monster.co.uk/jobs/search/?q=lead+developer&where=london&cy=uk http://www.monster.co.uk/jobs/search/?q=lead+developer&where...

In central Europe, make sure to become a contractor as soon as possible working for larger companies. That way you will be back at the old level.

DasIch 10y ago
Yeah because you'll get money instead of employee benefits. Money you might be forced by law to spend on things like health insurance. Not to mention the additional effort on your part when it comes to securing contracts, managing taxes, insurance and just overall having less job security.

saganus 10y ago

Why is that? because of wage differences between them or because of some country-specific thing?

lgieron 10y ago
In general: lower wages, higher taxes.

tirant 10y ago

And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availability, Unemployment insurance, Retirement Funds, Disability Support :)

ryanSrich 10y ago
So by some magical force all those things are free? Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.
- FordPrefectAO 10y ago
  Consider it part of your total package, and your reduction in pay is offset by this
- richardwhiuk 10y ago
  They are often taken from the companies cost to hire you before you see the number. e.g. if the company pays you 100K, they may have to pay the government 10K a year in tax which pays for the services, whereas in America you may be paid 120K and then have to fork over 20K for those services (all numbers are made up obviously).
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    In Germany it is rather a rule of thumb that the company has to pay the same amount to you as to other instituations (social security contributions, pensions office, long-term care insurance, health insurance etc.).
- prophet_ 10y ago
  Check tax rate in countries like the Netherlands. I cannot complain about what I get here for that money, though. I think people coming from a "sunny", southern countries (like me) would mostly have other things to get used to rather than tax itself.
- geebee 10y ago
  Child care in SF, if you really need the full time kind that allows you to work full time (but not overtime) is going to run you about $2,500 a month. Two kids, you are looking at like $60k a year in childcare. If you have a family on an employer healthcare plan, you will likely have to cover some of it from your paycheck, $6k a year wouldn't be too unusual. Keep in mind, you'll still be the person who absolutely has to stop at 5:30, because you can't leave your kid at daycare. Tech companies may try to solve this by avoiding employees with families and kids. "I want to stress the importance of being young and technical.. I don't know...Young people just have simpler lives. We may not own a car. We may not have family."
- 10y ago

davedx 10y ago

Yeesh. Salaries across the US alone vary hugely just within IT. If you're moving from Silicon Valley to Amsterdam, sure, you'll have a pay cut. You'll also have vastly cheaper rent and an awesome quality of life, hardly any commuting hassle, and you almost certainly won't be working 50-80 hour weeks anymore.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

Only it isn't really comparable that way. It is really give and take on that one. If actual money is your goal, you probably want to be really selective. But you might also be able to live a better lifestyle on those wages - or maybe like the culture or something like that. Same sort of consideration folks have when moving from a coast to, say, the midwest (outside of cities). You make less money, have cheaper rent, but gotta have a car.

davidiach 10y ago

One other important thing to realize is that as a software developer you are not only paid worse than in the US, but there are also other subtler differences. In Germany for example, the difference between the median wage for the general population and the median wage for developers is much less pronounces than it is in the US. You should expect to take a cut in terms of social status as well, being a developer in Europe isn't as sexy as it is in the US.

nfriedly 10y ago

Seriously. I just got a recruiter spam email yesterday for a job in London with a salary listed at "up to £45k" (about $55k USD). That's less than half of my current salary in a city with double the cost of living! (I'm in Ohio, but apparently London is even more expensive than SF: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+london+england+vs+san+francisco https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+london+...)

0xmohit 10y ago
Oh, I thought that wolframalpha was limited to maths. Thanks, TIL.
tom_mellior 10y ago
For whatever it's worth, Numbeo disagrees: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=London&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
6t6t6t6 10y ago
Up to £45k is an offer for an entry level job. If you have experience, you should be looking for £60k or more. London is an amazing city if you can get a good job, otherwise, it can be quite hard to live there.
- nfriedly 10y ago
  The email said they were looking for a "Senior/Lead" person, but I'm sure you're right in general.
  - 6t6t6t6 10y ago
    They are not going to find a Lead developer for this price. And if they find someone, that person will move to another company after realising how salaries are in London. http://www.monster.co.uk/jobs/search/?q=lead+developer&where=london&cy=uk http://www.monster.co.uk/jobs/search/?q=lead+developer&where...