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The article should start with the prerequisites, things like an university degree and some work experience will make your job hunt easier and in many cases it w
by guessmyname 10y ago
The article should start with the prerequisites, things like an university degree and some work experience will make your job hunt easier and in many cases it will be impossible to get an European job with relocation without these two things.
I, for example, have been trying to get a job in many of the startups in Amsterdam and Berlin for the past 3 months and it has been impossible due to my lack of formal education, or better, due to the lack of university degree. And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US), so even if I had finished university I wouldn't be able to compete with the education of engineers that are already living in Europe. More than once my profile has been rejected by European companies because they can find someone as good (or more) than me without the need to initiate an immigration process.
Nonetheless, I will try every single website linked in this article because I hope than maybe one of these days I will get hired for work experience and skills than for my education. I haven't found a job in Europe for lack of trying.
- nrki 10y agoAgreed, it focuses on job boards/recruiters to use, but not the checklist that includes visas, passports, residency options and funds required.
- zzzcpan 10y agoFormal education (university degree) is required to get a work visa pretty much everywhere. I think this is why you get rejected all the time.
- nish1500 10y agoTechnically, it isn't required for the Netherlands. Germany requires a degree for work visa, but makes an exception for tech industry, so it's not required there either, if you go by the rules. However, a friend got his visa for Germany turned down because he didn't have a degree.
- mlent 10y agoYep -- Germany LOVES the degree (the fact that they love certifications and titles is so true). I have a colleague without a degree working as a software developer, but for me they required a photo copy of my diploma for whatever reason.
- wolfgke 10y ago> but for me they required a photo copy of my diploma for whatever reason. If you went to Austria instead (of Germany), you probbably would have needed a notarially certified copy of your diiploma (there is a true story behind this sarcastic remark). ;-)
- mlent 10y agoJust wow. I don't know what they hope to gain from these pieces of paper, but alright :D
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- peterfisher 10y agoI've worked in NL for three years, I had zero problems with lack of formal degree. It isn't even required here in NL for a 'highly skilled migrant' visa. More information: https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx Highly skilled migrant visas do require you to work within a company who participates in this scheme, which limits your prospects.
- donohoe 10y agoWhat about language? I know there is a high-level of English spoken but is the expectation that you learn the language quickly?
- davedx 10y agoI've lived and worked in the NL for 6 years. It depends on the company. Most companies I've worked for have not minded at all that I wasn't fluent. Some companies will be happy to offer to pay for language courses. I think you'll find that most tech companies in the west of the country won't mind at all, but in other parts of the Netherlands it can vary.
- ddorian43 10y agoMost companies don't care that you don't know the language (and aren't planning to). But you will need to learn it to fully integrate in the country (though many haven't and do fine).
- peterfisher 10y agoI have only worked for a single company, and it's a very international. Everyone speaks English. There is close to zero written or spoken Dutch. This is in Amsterdam though, where a lot of people both within my company and outside speak English. If you go else where in the country, outside of North Holland, people defiantly speak less English and it's more advantageous to know Dutch. I personally learned Dutch because I didn't feel like I could really assimilate without it.
- jodrellblank 10y agoNot for lack of trying.
- hfsktr 10y agoSimilar but I've been sending out applications for many more months[0]. I think I can recall 2 times where they told me I was ineligible (because they didn't specify they were only willing to accept EU citizens) and once where I got a declined email. It probably doesn't help that 'degree'[1] isn't worth much but with 5+ years experience I feel like I am competent. Maybe just not enough or in the right tech. It's rather disheartening, especially when you read on here about people getting so many offers daily. I know it's like a FB feed though and not everyone's reality. Sorry for the rant. [0]In the UK though so maybe they are even stricter than other countries. [1]ITT, it was enough to get me in the door locally though. I can't go back and tell younger me not to be so stupid.
- nitely 10y agoI've received offers from companies in Denmark, Ireland and Netherlands. They did not care about the lack of a formal degree and they would sponsor a work VISA. I think the hardest part about finding a job in Europe is finding one that won't low ball you.
- hfsktr 10y agoIf you don't mind, what do you do? It seems like a lot of the jobs I see are for such specific roles they have to reach worldwide to find someone with that knowledge. The kind of stuff I only read about in headlines here but that I will never get close to at work or in a personal project. I am just curious if it's rather hopeless if you aren't "THE BEST"[0]. [0]rockstar, ninja, other buzzwords.
- ddorian43 10y agoI got offers too. See example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847351 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847351 . I mostly do backend, but like that there are also for frontend.
- obj-g 10y agoNah man, I mean, sure it depends what you do, but for example I'm just an iOS developer, I got a job here in Barcelona after a month of searching and more offers after that. They are all just normal companies who need employees. Edit: It's true that I was already here in Barcelona, not applying from the States.
- bogomipz 10y agoI am curious if you are based in the US? I have heard more than a few times about EU companies paying significantly less that the US for the same positions. Were any of them willing to negotiate?
- 77pt77 10y agoThe margins are much smaller than in the US.
- gdulli 10y agoThe part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. So if ability is there with a candidate, education is irrelevant. Candidate supply and demand has companies removing barriers, not adding them. (At least in the big-city markets I have experience with.) What does the emphasis on education abroad mean? That the supply and demand for developers is inverted relative to the US? Or that they're behind the times and haven't figured out what we've figured out here?
- jacalata 10y agoEducation is very relevant if you are applying for an American work visa.
- randomdata 10y agoDoes it depend on the visa? The TN requirements seem to be not a whole lot more than being from an eligible location and having a business in the US that is eligible and wanting to hire you.
- jacalata 10y agoIt does depend in the visa, but TN visas require you to be a qualified professional in a specific career and in most categories that means you need qualifications like an RN or CPA. Even for a programmer a degree will make it easier to get the visa. https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/tn-nafta-professionals https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
- oblio 10y agoFrom what I've seen related to France at least, they seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on formal education. Luckily I have a master's degree but I imagine that getting a job without at least a college degree is quite a bit harder and paid a bit less, unless you're lucky.
- wolfgke 10y ago> The part about university is counterintuitive. In the US companies have to compete for talent, not vice-versa. To perhaps resolve this contradiction: In Germany you typically are not considered as "talent" if you are self-learnt, only if you have a formal degree (also for blue-collar jobs you do apprenticeship for 2 to 3 years). The mentality really is "if the person is not even able to get a degree/do an apprenticeship" how can he/she an able person. The only exception of this rule if you are self-employed - then it's your problem to find customers. If you are successful as a self-employed person or founder (even though you have no formal degree), you will still be accepted. One reason (beside tradition) might be that in Germany there are strong dismissal protection laws. This means that after a probation period of typically a half year it becomes complicated to fire you. Thus as an employer you really want to go the safe way: It is not sufficient that you are currently good, but also that you are able to learn new things on your own. A university degree is a strong sign that you are able to learn new, complicated things on your own in the future: It is my impression that to get a degree at a typical German university in some STEM subject you are a lot more on your own in terms of learning etc. than at a typical US university.
- davezatch 10y agoHey guessmyname, I'm surprised to hear that. As an expat working/living in Berlin for the last 5 years or so that hasn't been my experience. Also, my current company has been hiring for a while now, and we may be an outlier, but we get lots of applications from people outside the EU and always take them seriously. We've helped several people go through the visa process already. Your email is not in your profile, but my company is hiring :) feel free to hit me up at david.carter [at] uberall [dot] com
- DrNuke 10y agoPerspective should be king here: do you consider how many unknown quantities (not saying this in disregard) apply every day from everywhere for every single post or even cold call employers in the Western countries? Hundreds per day. It is impossible, unconvenient and a waste of time/money to assess every single case on their merit: a reply generally opens a barrage of further replies and unwanted, unneeded communication flow. So what? Spamming is not the way. Hack your way in a different manner.
- davedx 10y agoHey, we're a company in Amsterdam looking for developers (among other roles). We don't necessarily require a formal education -- it will kind of depend on role too of course. Drop me an email if you want to chat: dave@vandebron.nl
- randomdata 10y ago> it will kind of depend on role too of course Why of course? This seems very unintuitive, actually. Has your data collection revealed something interesting about formal education and its affects on certain roles that are not found in others?
- richardwhiuk 10y agoIf you want to be their attorney, you might be required to have a legal degree?
- randomdata 10y agoGood point. I hadn't considered the supply management aspect.
- mdpopescu 10y agoIn my country I cannot be titled "programmer" (or anything like that) without a pertinent degree. I had problems getting credit from banks because I was showing them a $3000 monthly salary as an "unqualified worker" :) Law is weird.
- rancar2 10y agoOne more option for you (if you speak English fluently): we have an awesome team based in Portugal called Meta. Our two founders—Joana Rafael and Vasco Portugal—are two of the nicest people you will ever meet in additional to being great leaders. We collobrate with partners to launch IoT/M2M products. If the partner is a startup, we support all aspects of the product developement and launch until typically its series B round including ideation & product/market fit, MVP to production hardware & software development, fund raising support, marketing/growth hacking, and international expansion from Europe to the US/Americas. We also spinout our own products based on staff and investor interest like Sensei, a video analytics platform for retail spaces <https://sensei.tech/> https://sensei.tech/>. These spinouts are are owned by the team working on them, which we feel is the right thing to do. Where you would probably work is our main R&D innovation office in Lisbon, but we also have a hardware manufacturing and software support team in other locations. Also with Meta's salaries, you will live a nice life in Portugal in addition to a healthy work/life balance. If you never have been to Portugal, its people are nice and happy to speak English with you, and its food and weather are quite remarkable too. It is truly a good life. Check us out, and if you would like to discover more, email me: Randy Carlton <rcarlton@meta-icg.com> and we can Skype/Hangout. https://www.meta-icg.com https://www.meta-icg.com
- 77pt77 10y ago> And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US) It used to be like this in many places in Europe pre-bologna (circa 2000?)
- Fargren 10y agoMany countries/companies will consider a 5 year Bachelors as good as a 3 years Bachelrs plus a Masters if the university has a good program. Translating titles is complex, and if your country does something unusual, explaining it goes a long way. Of course that does not help that you need a five year investment to get any official qualification.
- mdpopescu 10y agoLast time I interviewed in Dublin (summer of 2015), I did about 15 phone interviews and about 8 in-person; I was only asked once about a degree and the guy said "I don't have one either". I do have over 25 years of experience though, so that might be more important than credentials.
- obj-g 10y agoNot to pick on you specifically, but "Europe" is a pretty big place. The countries are all quite different from one another with different requirements and attitudes, etc. Your best bet, in my opinion, as someone from the States who lives and works in Spain and has no formal CS education -- save up, research the country you like, go there on a Schengen visa, find jobs and interview in person and stay there. You got 90 days on a Schengen visa. If you have experience in your field, you can find a job. That's how you get it done.
- tom_mellior 10y ago> go there on a Schengen visa, find jobs and interview in person and stay there Do you know from personal experience that that works? My understanding is that you would not be allowed to work on a Schengen tourist visa. Wouldn't the process be more like "go there, find jobs, interview, apply for a work visa, wait for months to have it issued, find the job gone"?
- obj-g 10y agoNo, you're almost always allowed to work while waiting for the visa to be approved (which it will be if everything is in order from the start). In other words, once you have a job offer you can apply for a work visa, and once the application process has begun you can start working. It's also pretty easy to set yourself up as a freelancer in many European countries but you have to do more things on your own (taxes, etc).
- vram22 10y ago"It's also pretty easy to set yourself up as a freelancer in many European countries" Which ones? I've only heard of this for Germany.
- obj-g 10y agoI can confirm Czech Republic and Spain as both being pretty straightforward and simple, only because I've lived both places and known people who have gone through the processes. I'd be surprised if it wasn't doable and relatively easy in the majority of EU countries. You'll just have to google the country you're interested in along with "business license" or something similar. Getting a work visa or immigrating into the United States is so difficult that I think it's hard for Americans to imagine, but it's actually pretty easy to work legally in the EU if you're able to get a decent job (and by that I mean that McDonald's isn't going to be hiring foreign employees and sponsoring visas) or obtain a business license (usually some fee for the application, proof you can perform the job you say you're going to do, and the onus of administrative duties related to taxes, healthcare, etc). Plus, you can get creative. I was issued a 5 year "EU family member visa" just for having a Czech girlfriend. This gave me all the rights of movement and work that EU citizens enjoy.