11 ms·

For software developers: how to find a job with relocation to Europe

263 points by Lexandrit 10y ago

donretag 10y ago
I would love to move to Europe. As of now I am planning at least to retire in Europe (lack of high property taxes makes retirement easier). But the lack of jobs, especially interesting ones, in the warmer Mediterranean countries keeps me away. I am a dual citizen (US/EU), so I would have no visa issues unless I go to Croatia. This site only re-enforces the fact that all the tech jobs are up north.
dijit 10y ago
Sort of on-topic; we're hiring in Sweden and we don't care where you're from. http://www.massive.se/jobs http://www.massive.se/jobs
- coldcode 10y ago
  Of course Sweden itself might care.
- zerr 10y ago
  What about don't caring where one works from? ;)
  - ff10 10y ago
    You are asking the right questions.
    - alessioalex 10y ago
      He asks the best questions.
  - dijit 10y ago
    Unfortunately, we need you to be in the office. Even if remote working was culturally accepted in ubisoft I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway.
    - zerr 10y ago
      > I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway. No problem with that. It is even preferable. Also 1-2 week(s) onsite stints once in awhile afterwards.
- SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
  ubisoft? will you relocate me to sweden?
  - dijit 10y ago
    If you're a fit for our roles, we will. I am a relocatee working in Malmo now. :)
- robin_reala 10y ago
  Malmö? Tempting.
  - busterarm 10y ago
    Very, but sadly it looks like I'm not the right kind of programmer for them. :(
guessmyname 10y ago
The article should start with the prerequisites, things like an university degree and some work experience will make your job hunt easier and in many cases it will be impossible to get an European job with relocation without these two things. I, for example, have been trying to get a job in many of the startups in Amsterdam and Berlin for the past 3 months and it has been impossible due to my lack of formal education, or better, due to the lack of university degree. And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US), so even if I had finished university I wouldn't be able to compete with the education of engineers that are already living in Europe. More than once my profile has been rejected by European companies because they can find someone as good (or more) than me without the need to initiate an immigration process. Nonetheless, I will try every single website linked in this article because I hope than maybe one of these days I will get hired for work experience and skills than for my education. I haven't found a job in Europe for lack of trying.
- nrki 10y ago
  Agreed, it focuses on job boards/recruiters to use, but not the checklist that includes visas, passports, residency options and funds required.
- zzzcpan 10y ago
  Formal education (university degree) is required to get a work visa pretty much everywhere. I think this is why you get rejected all the time.
  - nish1500 10y ago
    Technically, it isn't required for the Netherlands. Germany requires a degree for work visa, but makes an exception for tech industry, so it's not required there either, if you go by the rules. However, a friend got his visa for Germany turned down because he didn't have a degree.
    - 10y ago
nrki 10y ago
Off-topic, but that stock image misspelled "Sydney".
Compulsion 10y ago
First life hack: make sure you want to live in Europe. I like the parts of Europe I've been to (Germany, Ireland, France, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands) Having said that, don't expect it to be better than wherever you are. There is no promised land. I'm saying this even though I work for a large company with offices throughout Europe. I could transfer without any difficulty and get paid relocation to my choice of cool European cities. That's not to sound braggy, just to say that just because you have the opportunity it's worth considering whether its worth the jump for you.
- paganel 10y ago
  As an Eastern European that's a very good point you make. I'm still living and working in my home-country, unlike many of my peers, but were I move westward I'd only do it to a city which I've previously visited as a tourist and I liked. So as a suggestion to US people wanting to relocate to Europe, before you make the move maybe it'd be worth visiting your target location at least for 3 or 4 days.
- throwaway729 10y ago
  I miss the small familiarities when abroad. Small things like the style of windows, houses, roads, smells. Also, national forests. Bigger things: being a native speaker, knowing how all the institutions (schools, churches, etc.) work. Never having to learn subtle stuff about how to interact in this or that rare situation. Being a citizen of the place you live. Being near family. Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.
  - mbesto 10y ago
    > Small things like the style of windows, German windows design and their obsession with fresh air is such a subtle but absolutely fantastic part of their culture IMHO.
    - throwaway729 10y ago
      Right, German windows are better in every way. I didn't say my nostalgia for home was at all rational :-)
pistoriusp 10y ago
As a software developer living in Germany I wouldn't mind swopping with someone in the USA? Any takers?
- overcast 10y ago
  Are you saying that the grass is always greener on the other side?
  - ishtu 10y ago
    As person who moved from Belarus to Netherlands, grass is definitely greener here.
    - oblio 10y ago
      Well, it rains more in the Netherlands...
      - prophet_ 10y ago
        weather, house prices (Ams), company food, expat friendliness, ppl mindset, etc, a lot could be a bit better I guess.
- ff10 10y ago
  I chime in. iOS From LA -> Berlin anyone?
- atemerev 10y ago
  Why bother for the US if you have German-speaking Switzerland nearby, with great salaries?
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    Because it is well-known that the Swiss people are not fond of German immigrants. While I feel that Germany and Austria have a rather similar culture (though I'm probably biased here since my father is Austrian), the there is a much larger difference in culture (and German language) between Germany and Switzerland.". While the Germans hardly have problems with Swiss people, the other direction is more complicated. Just google for 'Schweiz Fremdenfeindlichkeit gegen Deutsche' to get lots of German articles about this. Also the living expensess are much higher in Switzerland. As a rule of thumb I have heard: "If you get two times in Switzerland of what you get in Germany: Take the job. If it is much less: don't.".
tixocloud 10y ago
Is there a similar site/service for upper-management/product manager/analytics roles?
andr 10y ago
Having just been through the process myself, here's my advice. 1) If you are moving from the US, you want to move to Europe not for better jobs, but for better quality of life overall. Europeans work less hours, have more vacation, and many more places to go to with a $50 plane ticket. Unless you live in NYC, your future European capital will likely be more diverse when it comes to culture and food. 2) Start by picking the city where you want to live. Scout it, see what is around, see what the people are like. Look for a job after you find that place. 3) Meeting people face to face will make your job search much easier. If you can AirBnB your US apartment, that might even be enough to pay for a trip to cheaper cities like Berlin or Barcelona. 4) Yes, you'll need a work visa, and while each country is a little different when it comes to those, generally being sponsored by a company is all you need. 5) In most cases, don't worry about the native language. I have found jobs, and know people that have done the same, in Zurich, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, and Barcelona, knowing only English. Once you settle, you might want to learn the local language for social reasons, of course, but there are plenty of English-only jobs.
- geff82 10y ago
  There are some English-Only jobs of course, but the competition for it is higher. If you know the local language, you have a lot of offerings to choose from (at least it is like this in Germany outside Berlin and banking-Frankfurt). Not knowing German reduces your chance to find a new job in case you need it.
- tom_mellior 10y ago
  > In most cases, don't worry about the native language. [...] Paris [...] I know a bunch of fellow expats in Paris. The ones that came here with the intention of learning/improving French are usually happy. The ones that came expecting to get by with only English are absolutely miserable and hate it here. The French (rightly) regard you as an arrogant prick if you don't show that you are willing to make the effort, and they treat you accordingly. Yes, the other places you mentioned are probably easier in this regard.
  - cstejerean 10y ago
memracom 10y ago
Do learn some of the native language of your target country before you apply. Having that on your resume and being able to handle small talk in an interview demonstrates that you are serious about staying in the new country for some time. There is lots of good advice on the Internet on how to learn a foreign language fast and it does not include "take a course" because the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps. Just do it, practice it every day in every way that you can, starting today. No excuses. EVERY DAY. If you have nobody else to talk to then talk to yourself in the foreign language. This is brain training and requires practice. And just like compound interest, working for an hour or so every day pays off big in language learning.
- tom_mellior 10y ago
  > the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps That's also my impression, having learned some languages in traditional courses and some others using Duolingo. It's not completely clear cut because there are presumably different types of learners, but yes, there are easier, cheaper, better resources than traditional courses.
- SyneRyder 10y ago
  If it helps others, Duolingo is obviously a good starting point for this (and free), but I also liked LingQ because you can import articles from the web and learn to read them word by word, building up your own personal dictionary in the process. So instead of pre-defined lessons, I learned by reading German song lyrics. (Unheilig is now my favorite band.) Speaking / conversation is really important though, and I haven't solved that yet. iTalki looks good, but I've not yet tried any of the Skype sessions yet. [0] https://duolingo.com/ https://duolingo.com/ [1] https://www.lingq.com/ https://www.lingq.com/ [2] https://www.italki.com/ https://www.italki.com/
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  As part of my immigration requirements, I took 2 years - 550+ hours - of Norwegian instruction. I was in class for about 18 hours a week. And the truth is, this has helped far beyond whatever I tried to piece together myself. I never actually found it as an obstacle. And the truth is, I found that when I spoke Norwegian badly, the norm was to switch quickly to English - both because most Norwegians learned it and it is more efficient communcation (and helpful).
yitchelle 10y ago
One thing the article did not touch on is the administrative aspect. Visa requirements, social norms, etc. It all contributes to the decision. Oh, don't forget to talk to your SO as well.
ausjke 10y ago
Scientific analysis shows in about 30 years Europe will be dominated by Muslim population,which has a different perspective about just everything, why should I relocate to Europe at all?
- pyrale 10y ago
  because, by 30 years, the reptilians will probably control the US.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ryanSrich 10y ago
Life hack #1. Be prepared to take a 50-75% pay cut if you're relocating from the US.
- geff82 10y ago
  In central Europe, make sure to become a contractor as soon as possible working for larger companies. That way you will be back at the old level.
  - DasIch 10y ago
    Yeah because you'll get money instead of employee benefits. Money you might be forced by law to spend on things like health insurance. Not to mention the additional effort on your part when it comes to securing contracts, managing taxes, insurance and just overall having less job security.
- saganus 10y ago
  Why is that? because of wage differences between them or because of some country-specific thing?
  - lgieron 10y ago
    In general: lower wages, higher taxes.
- tirant 10y ago
  And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availability, Unemployment insurance, Retirement Funds, Disability Support :)
  - ryanSrich 10y ago
    So by some magical force all those things are free? Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.
ced 10y ago
Work holiday visas are a great way of getting into Europe if your country qualifies for it. Many people transition from these visas into a work permit. It's way easier to find a job when you're on the ground and can get a face-to-face interview. http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visainfo.html http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visainfo.html
robk 10y ago
If you're a good computer scientist or have done notable things in tech, the UK's Tech City visa is a really simple and fast way of getting a 5-year visa for the UK that has a path to permanent residence then citizenship afterwards (after year 5 and 6 respectively). I've had friends use this with great success recently in engineering, product management and product marketing roles and quite short turnaround times (often less than a month if you've done a complete packet with references). It's most relevant if you've worked at either promising fast-growth startups or otherwise bigger tech companies before like Google/Facebook/etc. Having a job lined up already is not required although you'll have to show work experience in the UK to stay after the 5 years. If you're in a marriage or partnership you can also get your partner's visa through this as well. The criteria are pretty reasonable if you've done even noncommercial things like research and the "promising" track is suitable for younger/less experienced folks with demonstrable potential. Feel free to reach out if you have questions and I'll do my best to answer them. http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/ http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/
- ng12 10y ago
  I used to visit the UK a couple times a year. Beautiful country but I don't think I could ever justify moving there in light of recent events [1]. Especially considering that, coming from the US, greener pastures aren't all that hard to find. 1. http://www.zdnet.com/article/snoopers-charter-expansive-new-spying-powers-becomes-law/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/snoopers-charter-expansive-new-...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
chmod888 10y ago
I've started this process myself (an experienced American web developer). One advantage I might have here over others is my wife is a dual-citizen (France/US). The one offer I received is about half what I make now. I turned it down hoping to hold out for something better. I've gathered that one's salary will very wildly based on the country (Switzerland seems to be the highest). The loss of salary has been disappointing and something that I'm willing to sacrifice (there are other advantages that offset it, like work/life balance) but not so much that I'm making less than an entry level salary in the US. This site looks promising so thanks for sharing. If there are any more sites like this, or recruiters that specialize in this kind of thing, I'd love to know.
- david-given 10y ago
  Do bear in mind the different costs of living. My company relocated me from the UK to Switzerland; my salary rose significantly --- but it doesn't make me better off, because I'm spending more. Depending where you go, it's quite possible that a lower gross salary could end up being quite reasonable simply because costs are lower. (Although that's not going to be true in Switzerland.)
- pi-err 10y ago
  Overall, wages in France will be lower in software - with important things to keep in mind: - health and education are dirt cheap. This is phenomenal for a family (even compared to the the U.K.). The downside is you have less control on your kids/health. - roles and culture in most companies are still stuck in the 90s. Push and evangelize on what/how you do and you'll get fitter offers - you'll work less. More holidays, shorter work weeks. Life in Paris is stressfull so you'll need that. A nice bonus is that most Europe cities are a short flight away, great for week ends. Lyon/Munich/Amsterdam/Barcelona are all excellent places too (better than Paris and even London in many respects) Hopefully we get at least some of you guys to move over here and push for a better community : )
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Last year I was in Europe on a self-funded sabbatical. I was backpacking around the world for about 11 months. I had a few interviews in Germany and The Netherlands that didn't work out, but one thing I did notice is that many European countries don't have the huge income wage gap for software engineers. An engineer that might go for $150k in Chicago or Seattle would be about 50h ~ 55k euro in Berlin. It works it self out with lower costs for groceries, better public transportation, reasonable housing prices, etc. The loss of salary you mention might seem bad for you, but it's part of having generally lower income inequality. The wage gaps in America (a lot of it brought on by the high demand and cost of housing and our poor transportation networks) are not good for people without tech jobs in cities that are dominated by them.
lujim 10y ago
Life hack #2: Don't move to Europe to chase a girl or run from a President-elect. (actually do whatever you want just don't expect the girl to be as good or the President-elect to be as bad as they seem to you right now) Edit: All the guys with great relationships... I was attempting unsuccessfully to be funny. Have a great weekend. Edit 2: It appears from the replies below that 75% of men that follow a girl to another country find it to be the best decision they ever made. I would like to formally retract my Lifehack
- elliotec 10y ago
  I chased a girl to Europe, by far the best decision I ever made.
  - busterarm 10y ago
    I chased a girl to Canada and it was the worst decision I ever made. YMMV.
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      Chasing the girl, or chasing her to Canada? ;)
      - busterarm 10y ago
        Both, actually.
        77pt77 10y ago
        Canada is sorry...
  - davedx 10y ago
    Same, chased a girl to the Netherlands from the UK. Been here 6 years, getting married next year, 4 kids and the best job I've ever had. Not sure if my life could be much better. :)
samfisher83 10y ago
I think Europe pays much worse than US for SWE. Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k.
- dagw 10y ago
  if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k. 'Fortunately' hardly any programming jobs in Europe pay over 100k
- tobltobs 10y ago
  > pays much worse than US for SWE. Might make sense to include the cost of living into your calculation, wouldn't it? > Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k. I would guess that every country in the EU has a Double taxation agreement with the US.
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  Unless you gain citizenship elsewhere and relinquish your US citizenship. :)
- hiram112 10y ago
  Also you can deduct the taxes paid in the EU so you are not going to be paying US taxes if you are being taxed legitimately.
davedx 10y ago
Is this a good thread to mention "we're hiring"? :) Sustainable energy company in Amsterdam. We can do visas. https://vandebron.nl/vacancies https://vandebron.nl/vacancies
tobltobs 10y ago
Be aware that if you are looking for a job in a EU country you have a disadvantage against other job candidates from a EU country. Most countries have a quota for non-EU work visa, whereas there is no so thing for employees from an EU country. That means that your employer would have to go through some hassle to sponsor your visa. That usually means you need to have a searched for specialization and senior level work experience. If you don't have this specialization or not enough work experience you could try to look for jobs in remote areas where employers have problems to find people. The southwest of Germany with those zillions of small to middle sized mechanical engineering companies would be an example for that. Of course the cultural shock will be bigger than the one you get if you go to eg. London. Your salary also will be about 20%-30% lower then those in a city, you could describe those places as boring (or laid back, depending on your point of view) and you would definitely have to learn the language.
- ukie 10y ago
  >> Most countries have a quota for non-EU work visa Absolute majority of the EU countries do NOT have this quota. >> ...disadvantage against other job candidates from a EU country It is partly true because an employer must give a priority to EU citizen, but in a situation of labour shortage, it is almost never a problem in real life. >> That usually means you need to have a searched for specialization and senior level work experience. This is an absolute BS. Labour shortage in the IT is huge in any EU country. >> Of course the cultural shock will be bigger than the one you get if you go to eg. London. Well, you are an American, so I forgive you this ignorance. >> Your salary also will be about 20%-30% lower then those in a city Mega BS #2: in majority of EU countries it would be illegal. For instance, in Scandinavia union must take a look at your job contract and if employer offers worse conditions than for local workers, they'll give negative feedback and migration agency will reject visa application.
heneryville 10y ago
This year I relocated myself and my family (four kids) to Nicaragua. Both my wife and I speak fluent spanish, but I was very surprised by how hard and how expensive it was. Some things I learned: - Finding what you need is hard. We've got to buy a hula hoop for our kid's school. We don't know exactly where to go, and wind up driving around for 3 hours to find the right thing - Small things are hard. We spend hours each month waiting in lines at banks to pay the electricity bill, the water bill, the internet bill, rent, the plumber, the reservation fee for a beach house. I miss bill pay terribly. - Culture is vastly different. Where in the US I felt like our family was well put together, here we're considered a mess since we don't have a full time maid and 2 nannies. We tell ourselves that we don't care what people think about us, but you get tired of being judged all day But on the flip side, we've been here 5 months and have already seen 4 volcanoes, numerous beaches with world-class surfing, my kids are starting to learn Spanish, and it's been a wonderful time to focus on what's really important for us. I'd recommend it, but not to anyone. You've got to be prepared for this.
- distances 10y ago
  > here we're considered a mess since we don't have a full time maid and 2 nannies. We tell ourselves that we don't care what people think about us, but you get tired of being judged all day Perhaps worth noting that in some countries hiring domestic help is seen as a kind of social requirement if you're wealthy enough to do that. Basically for job creation. No idea what's the case in Nicaragua though.
mgrpowers 10y ago
Working from Mexico. Moving was hard but the payoff was worth it.
mlent 10y ago
For people interested in this topic, I've written a fair amount on the more nitty gritty aspects, as an American who relocated to Berlin, Germany. http://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job/ http://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job... http://notanomadblog.com/startup-jobs-berlin/ http://notanomadblog.com/startup-jobs-berlin/ http://notanomadblog.com/prepare-resume-international-job/ http://notanomadblog.com/prepare-resume-international-job/ If anyone is interested in this and needs a push in the right direction, I'd hope these links help you out! Also, if you're a Javascript developer who wants to live in Berlin, I'm trying to hire someone excellent. If that's you, please apply: https://sumup.workable.com/jobs/373611 https://sumup.workable.com/jobs/373611 Ok, enough self promotion. If anyone has questions about relocating to Germany or Berlin, HMU :)
- wheels 10y ago
  Well done on the guide. I'm used to being the crotchety Berlin emigration pedant on HN, and this actually gets almost everything right. The process you described is still probably the most common (and the one that I took around 15 years ago). Worth adding, however, is the new-ish Blue Card system, which allows folks with relevant education to get a visa for 6 months to look for a job, in theory, simplifies the visa application process a bit, and gives you a faster track to permanent residence. My wife is a more recent immigrant (from Eastern Europe) and was able to get permanent residence much faster than I did because she went the Blue Card route.
  - dvdhnt 10y ago
    Not to be too prying, but you don't happen to have children do you? I do, very young, single digits, and would love to immigrate out of the US but healthcare, daycare, and schools for my children are priorities. Any thoughts on those there? I'd rather find out from the horse's mouth...
    - wheels 10y ago
      I do, but having spent virtually all of my adult life in Germany (36 now, moved here at 21), my sense of what's normal is the way that things are here. My son was born here and is a German citizen (which isn't automatic just by being born in Germany). He's 16 months old now. Healthcare and daycare aren't particularly difficult issues. The healthcare systems in developed countries are almost universally good. Health insurance is based on your income, rather than any pre-existing conditions or your job, and is universal. Day care is heavily subsidized. We pay €400/month because we're in the highest income bracket, but even that is being phased out next year (and up to now was only applied to kids from 1 to 3). Finding a day care spot can be annoying, but it's more of a chore than an impossibility. At our son's (public) day care, 55% of the kids have at least one non-German parent. We're not far enough for me to have anything more than a theoretical view on schools. Private schools are very rare here. Public schools are probably better than median US public schools. They're naturally in German, with the exception of (in Berlin) the JFK and Nelson Mandela schools, which are bi-lingual English and German. JFK specifically reserves spots for American kids. If the kids are young enough though, they'd probably pick up the language in an amazingly short span of time. (We don't have any special plans to send our kid to one of the bi-lingual schools. I'm fluent in German and my wife speaks it reasonably well, and we're both permanent residents here.)
mahdix 10y ago
This is exactly what I was looking for! Good resource at the right time!
LetBinding 10y ago
I am a data scientist working at a big firm in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have a PhD in CS with a specialization in AI / Machine Learning / NLP from a US university. I am from India. So I assume my nationality will be an immigration barrier in most countries. Is this something I should mention while formally applying?
tiatia 10y ago
One way plane ticket: 500 Dollar Fake Syrian passport that unlocks residency, shelter, food, pocket money and health insurance: 250 Dollar A German chancellor that is a criminal and is breaking German law and Agreements like Dublin III: priceless. There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there is MasterCard.
- clock_tower 10y ago
  You're going to put a fake passport on your credit card?! :)
  - tiatia 10y ago
    Why not? Yes, it is illegal but nobody gives a f. in Germany. The rule of law has long been gone under former secret police agent Angela Merkel (please google "IM Erika").
zemanel 10y ago
SanomaTech (virtual org of Sanoma Media) is hiring in the Netherlands: https://github.com/sanoma https://github.com/sanoma https://youtube.com/channel/UCU7D3JL3AZr05cbp_BXAdrw https://youtube.com/channel/UCU7D3JL3AZr05cbp_BXAdrw

263 points by Lexandrit 10y ago

I would love to move to Europe. As of now I am planning at least to retire in Europe (lack of high property taxes makes retirement easier). But the lack of jobs, especially interesting ones, in the warmer Mediterranean countries keeps me away. I am a dual citizen (US/EU), so I would have no visa issues unless I go to Croatia. This site only re-enforces the fact that all the tech jobs are up north.

dijit 10y ago

Sort of on-topic; we're hiring in Sweden and we don't care where you're from. http://www.massive.se/jobs http://www.massive.se/jobs

coldcode 10y ago
Of course Sweden itself might care.
zerr 10y ago
What about don't caring where one works from? ;)
- ff10 10y ago
  You are asking the right questions.
  - alessioalex 10y ago
    He asks the best questions.
- dijit 10y ago
  Unfortunately, we need you to be in the office. Even if remote working was culturally accepted in ubisoft I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway.
  - zerr 10y ago
    > I'd want people in my team to be on-site for the first six months anyway. No problem with that. It is even preferable. Also 1-2 week(s) onsite stints once in awhile afterwards.
SadWebDeveloper 10y ago
ubisoft? will you relocate me to sweden?
- dijit 10y ago
  If you're a fit for our roles, we will. I am a relocatee working in Malmo now. :)
robin_reala 10y ago
Malmö? Tempting.
- busterarm 10y ago
  Very, but sadly it looks like I'm not the right kind of programmer for them. :(

guessmyname 10y ago

The article should start with the prerequisites, things like an university degree and some work experience will make your job hunt easier and in many cases it will be impossible to get an European job with relocation without these two things. I, for example, have been trying to get a job in many of the startups in Amsterdam and Berlin for the past 3 months and it has been impossible due to my lack of formal education, or better, due to the lack of university degree. And to add salt to the wound, the education system in my home country forces you to pass +5 years studying just to get a Bachelors while you can get a BS in ~3 years in the EU and use the other 2 years to get a Masters (as in the US), so even if I had finished university I wouldn't be able to compete with the education of engineers that are already living in Europe. More than once my profile has been rejected by European companies because they can find someone as good (or more) than me without the need to initiate an immigration process. Nonetheless, I will try every single website linked in this article because I hope than maybe one of these days I will get hired for work experience and skills than for my education. I haven't found a job in Europe for lack of trying.

nrki 10y ago
Agreed, it focuses on job boards/recruiters to use, but not the checklist that includes visas, passports, residency options and funds required.
zzzcpan 10y ago
Formal education (university degree) is required to get a work visa pretty much everywhere. I think this is why you get rejected all the time.
- nish1500 10y ago
  Technically, it isn't required for the Netherlands. Germany requires a degree for work visa, but makes an exception for tech industry, so it's not required there either, if you go by the rules. However, a friend got his visa for Germany turned down because he didn't have a degree.
  - 10y ago

nrki 10y ago

Off-topic, but that stock image misspelled "Sydney".

Compulsion 10y ago

First life hack: make sure you want to live in Europe. I like the parts of Europe I've been to (Germany, Ireland, France, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands) Having said that, don't expect it to be better than wherever you are. There is no promised land. I'm saying this even though I work for a large company with offices throughout Europe. I could transfer without any difficulty and get paid relocation to my choice of cool European cities. That's not to sound braggy, just to say that just because you have the opportunity it's worth considering whether its worth the jump for you.

paganel 10y ago
As an Eastern European that's a very good point you make. I'm still living and working in my home-country, unlike many of my peers, but were I move westward I'd only do it to a city which I've previously visited as a tourist and I liked. So as a suggestion to US people wanting to relocate to Europe, before you make the move maybe it'd be worth visiting your target location at least for 3 or 4 days.
throwaway729 10y ago
I miss the small familiarities when abroad. Small things like the style of windows, houses, roads, smells. Also, national forests. Bigger things: being a native speaker, knowing how all the institutions (schools, churches, etc.) work. Never having to learn subtle stuff about how to interact in this or that rare situation. Being a citizen of the place you live. Being near family. Leaving your home country has a lot of drawbacks, no matter where you are from or where you are going to.
- mbesto 10y ago
  > Small things like the style of windows, German windows design and their obsession with fresh air is such a subtle but absolutely fantastic part of their culture IMHO.
  - throwaway729 10y ago
    Right, German windows are better in every way. I didn't say my nostalgia for home was at all rational :-)

pistoriusp 10y ago

As a software developer living in Germany I wouldn't mind swopping with someone in the USA? Any takers?

overcast 10y ago
Are you saying that the grass is always greener on the other side?
- ishtu 10y ago
  As person who moved from Belarus to Netherlands, grass is definitely greener here.
  - oblio 10y ago
    Well, it rains more in the Netherlands...
    - prophet_ 10y ago
      weather, house prices (Ams), company food, expat friendliness, ppl mindset, etc, a lot could be a bit better I guess.
ff10 10y ago
I chime in. iOS From LA -> Berlin anyone?
atemerev 10y ago
Why bother for the US if you have German-speaking Switzerland nearby, with great salaries?
- wolfgke 10y ago
  Because it is well-known that the Swiss people are not fond of German immigrants. While I feel that Germany and Austria have a rather similar culture (though I'm probably biased here since my father is Austrian), the there is a much larger difference in culture (and German language) between Germany and Switzerland.". While the Germans hardly have problems with Swiss people, the other direction is more complicated. Just google for 'Schweiz Fremdenfeindlichkeit gegen Deutsche' to get lots of German articles about this. Also the living expensess are much higher in Switzerland. As a rule of thumb I have heard: "If you get two times in Switzerland of what you get in Germany: Take the job. If it is much less: don't.".

tixocloud 10y ago

Is there a similar site/service for upper-management/product manager/analytics roles?

andr 10y ago

Having just been through the process myself, here's my advice. 1) If you are moving from the US, you want to move to Europe not for better jobs, but for better quality of life overall. Europeans work less hours, have more vacation, and many more places to go to with a $50 plane ticket. Unless you live in NYC, your future European capital will likely be more diverse when it comes to culture and food. 2) Start by picking the city where you want to live. Scout it, see what is around, see what the people are like. Look for a job after you find that place. 3) Meeting people face to face will make your job search much easier. If you can AirBnB your US apartment, that might even be enough to pay for a trip to cheaper cities like Berlin or Barcelona. 4) Yes, you'll need a work visa, and while each country is a little different when it comes to those, generally being sponsored by a company is all you need. 5) In most cases, don't worry about the native language. I have found jobs, and know people that have done the same, in Zurich, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, and Barcelona, knowing only English. Once you settle, you might want to learn the local language for social reasons, of course, but there are plenty of English-only jobs.

geff82 10y ago
There are some English-Only jobs of course, but the competition for it is higher. If you know the local language, you have a lot of offerings to choose from (at least it is like this in Germany outside Berlin and banking-Frankfurt). Not knowing German reduces your chance to find a new job in case you need it.
tom_mellior 10y ago
> In most cases, don't worry about the native language. [...] Paris [...] I know a bunch of fellow expats in Paris. The ones that came here with the intention of learning/improving French are usually happy. The ones that came expecting to get by with only English are absolutely miserable and hate it here. The French (rightly) regard you as an arrogant prick if you don't show that you are willing to make the effort, and they treat you accordingly. Yes, the other places you mentioned are probably easier in this regard.
- cstejerean 10y ago

memracom 10y ago

Do learn some of the native language of your target country before you apply. Having that on your resume and being able to handle small talk in an interview demonstrates that you are serious about staying in the new country for some time. There is lots of good advice on the Internet on how to learn a foreign language fast and it does not include "take a course" because the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps. Just do it, practice it every day in every way that you can, starting today. No excuses. EVERY DAY. If you have nobody else to talk to then talk to yourself in the foreign language. This is brain training and requires practice. And just like compound interest, working for an hour or so every day pays off big in language learning.

tom_mellior 10y ago
> the rigid structure of courses impedes more than helps That's also my impression, having learned some languages in traditional courses and some others using Duolingo. It's not completely clear cut because there are presumably different types of learners, but yes, there are easier, cheaper, better resources than traditional courses.
SyneRyder 10y ago
If it helps others, Duolingo is obviously a good starting point for this (and free), but I also liked LingQ because you can import articles from the web and learn to read them word by word, building up your own personal dictionary in the process. So instead of pre-defined lessons, I learned by reading German song lyrics. (Unheilig is now my favorite band.) Speaking / conversation is really important though, and I haven't solved that yet. iTalki looks good, but I've not yet tried any of the Skype sessions yet. [0] https://duolingo.com/ https://duolingo.com/ [1] https://www.lingq.com/ https://www.lingq.com/ [2] https://www.italki.com/ https://www.italki.com/
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
As part of my immigration requirements, I took 2 years - 550+ hours - of Norwegian instruction. I was in class for about 18 hours a week. And the truth is, this has helped far beyond whatever I tried to piece together myself. I never actually found it as an obstacle. And the truth is, I found that when I spoke Norwegian badly, the norm was to switch quickly to English - both because most Norwegians learned it and it is more efficient communcation (and helpful).

yitchelle 10y ago

One thing the article did not touch on is the administrative aspect. Visa requirements, social norms, etc. It all contributes to the decision. Oh, don't forget to talk to your SO as well.

ausjke 10y ago

Scientific analysis shows in about 30 years Europe will be dominated by Muslim population,which has a different perspective about just everything, why should I relocate to Europe at all?

pyrale 10y ago
because, by 30 years, the reptilians will probably control the US.
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ryanSrich 10y ago

Life hack #1. Be prepared to take a 50-75% pay cut if you're relocating from the US.

geff82 10y ago
In central Europe, make sure to become a contractor as soon as possible working for larger companies. That way you will be back at the old level.
- DasIch 10y ago
  Yeah because you'll get money instead of employee benefits. Money you might be forced by law to spend on things like health insurance. Not to mention the additional effort on your part when it comes to securing contracts, managing taxes, insurance and just overall having less job security.
saganus 10y ago
Why is that? because of wage differences between them or because of some country-specific thing?
- lgieron 10y ago
  In general: lower wages, higher taxes.
tirant 10y ago
And in exchange enjoy a myriad of services you had to pay before for: - Universal Healthcare, Kindergarden, Education, University, Public Transportation Availability, Unemployment insurance, Retirement Funds, Disability Support :)
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  So by some magical force all those things are free? Edit: this comment is being downvoted because I'm being facetious, but there's truth to it. No middle class tech worker in the US is spending 50-75% of their income on the list of resources in question.

ced 10y ago

Work holiday visas are a great way of getting into Europe if your country qualifies for it. Many people transition from these visas into a work permit. It's way easier to find a job when you're on the ground and can get a face-to-face interview. http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visainfo.html http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visainfo.html

robk 10y ago

If you're a good computer scientist or have done notable things in tech, the UK's Tech City visa is a really simple and fast way of getting a 5-year visa for the UK that has a path to permanent residence then citizenship afterwards (after year 5 and 6 respectively). I've had friends use this with great success recently in engineering, product management and product marketing roles and quite short turnaround times (often less than a month if you've done a complete packet with references). It's most relevant if you've worked at either promising fast-growth startups or otherwise bigger tech companies before like Google/Facebook/etc. Having a job lined up already is not required although you'll have to show work experience in the UK to stay after the 5 years. If you're in a marriage or partnership you can also get your partner's visa through this as well. The criteria are pretty reasonable if you've done even noncommercial things like research and the "promising" track is suitable for younger/less experienced folks with demonstrable potential. Feel free to reach out if you have questions and I'll do my best to answer them. http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/ http://www.techcityuk.com/tech-nation-visa/

ng12 10y ago
I used to visit the UK a couple times a year. Beautiful country but I don't think I could ever justify moving there in light of recent events [1]. Especially considering that, coming from the US, greener pastures aren't all that hard to find. 1. http://www.zdnet.com/article/snoopers-charter-expansive-new-spying-powers-becomes-law/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/snoopers-charter-expansive-new-...
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chmod888 10y ago

I've started this process myself (an experienced American web developer). One advantage I might have here over others is my wife is a dual-citizen (France/US). The one offer I received is about half what I make now. I turned it down hoping to hold out for something better. I've gathered that one's salary will very wildly based on the country (Switzerland seems to be the highest). The loss of salary has been disappointing and something that I'm willing to sacrifice (there are other advantages that offset it, like work/life balance) but not so much that I'm making less than an entry level salary in the US. This site looks promising so thanks for sharing. If there are any more sites like this, or recruiters that specialize in this kind of thing, I'd love to know.

david-given 10y ago
Do bear in mind the different costs of living. My company relocated me from the UK to Switzerland; my salary rose significantly --- but it doesn't make me better off, because I'm spending more. Depending where you go, it's quite possible that a lower gross salary could end up being quite reasonable simply because costs are lower. (Although that's not going to be true in Switzerland.)
pi-err 10y ago
Overall, wages in France will be lower in software - with important things to keep in mind: - health and education are dirt cheap. This is phenomenal for a family (even compared to the the U.K.). The downside is you have less control on your kids/health. - roles and culture in most companies are still stuck in the 90s. Push and evangelize on what/how you do and you'll get fitter offers - you'll work less. More holidays, shorter work weeks. Life in Paris is stressfull so you'll need that. A nice bonus is that most Europe cities are a short flight away, great for week ends. Lyon/Munich/Amsterdam/Barcelona are all excellent places too (better than Paris and even London in many respects) Hopefully we get at least some of you guys to move over here and push for a better community : )
djsumdog 10y ago
Last year I was in Europe on a self-funded sabbatical. I was backpacking around the world for about 11 months. I had a few interviews in Germany and The Netherlands that didn't work out, but one thing I did notice is that many European countries don't have the huge income wage gap for software engineers. An engineer that might go for $150k in Chicago or Seattle would be about 50h ~ 55k euro in Berlin. It works it self out with lower costs for groceries, better public transportation, reasonable housing prices, etc. The loss of salary you mention might seem bad for you, but it's part of having generally lower income inequality. The wage gaps in America (a lot of it brought on by the high demand and cost of housing and our poor transportation networks) are not good for people without tech jobs in cities that are dominated by them.

lujim 10y ago

Life hack #2: Don't move to Europe to chase a girl or run from a President-elect. (actually do whatever you want just don't expect the girl to be as good or the President-elect to be as bad as they seem to you right now) Edit: All the guys with great relationships... I was attempting unsuccessfully to be funny. Have a great weekend. Edit 2: It appears from the replies below that 75% of men that follow a girl to another country find it to be the best decision they ever made. I would like to formally retract my Lifehack

elliotec 10y ago
I chased a girl to Europe, by far the best decision I ever made.
- busterarm 10y ago
  I chased a girl to Canada and it was the worst decision I ever made. YMMV.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    Chasing the girl, or chasing her to Canada? ;)
    - busterarm 10y ago
      Both, actually.
      - 77pt77 10y ago
        Canada is sorry...
- davedx 10y ago
  Same, chased a girl to the Netherlands from the UK. Been here 6 years, getting married next year, 4 kids and the best job I've ever had. Not sure if my life could be much better. :)

samfisher83 10y ago

I think Europe pays much worse than US for SWE. Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k.

dagw 10y ago
if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k. 'Fortunately' hardly any programming jobs in Europe pay over 100k
tobltobs 10y ago
> pays much worse than US for SWE. Might make sense to include the cost of living into your calculation, wouldn't it? > Also if you are a US citizen you have to pay US taxes on everything over 100k. I would guess that every country in the EU has a Double taxation agreement with the US.
bobwaycott 10y ago
Unless you gain citizenship elsewhere and relinquish your US citizenship. :)
hiram112 10y ago
Also you can deduct the taxes paid in the EU so you are not going to be paying US taxes if you are being taxed legitimately.

davedx 10y ago

Is this a good thread to mention "we're hiring"? :) Sustainable energy company in Amsterdam. We can do visas. https://vandebron.nl/vacancies https://vandebron.nl/vacancies

tobltobs 10y ago

Be aware that if you are looking for a job in a EU country you have a disadvantage against other job candidates from a EU country. Most countries have a quota for non-EU work visa, whereas there is no so thing for employees from an EU country. That means that your employer would have to go through some hassle to sponsor your visa. That usually means you need to have a searched for specialization and senior level work experience. If you don't have this specialization or not enough work experience you could try to look for jobs in remote areas where employers have problems to find people. The southwest of Germany with those zillions of small to middle sized mechanical engineering companies would be an example for that. Of course the cultural shock will be bigger than the one you get if you go to eg. London. Your salary also will be about 20%-30% lower then those in a city, you could describe those places as boring (or laid back, depending on your point of view) and you would definitely have to learn the language.

ukie 10y ago
>> Most countries have a quota for non-EU work visa Absolute majority of the EU countries do NOT have this quota. >> ...disadvantage against other job candidates from a EU country It is partly true because an employer must give a priority to EU citizen, but in a situation of labour shortage, it is almost never a problem in real life. >> That usually means you need to have a searched for specialization and senior level work experience. This is an absolute BS. Labour shortage in the IT is huge in any EU country. >> Of course the cultural shock will be bigger than the one you get if you go to eg. London. Well, you are an American, so I forgive you this ignorance. >> Your salary also will be about 20%-30% lower then those in a city Mega BS #2: in majority of EU countries it would be illegal. For instance, in Scandinavia union must take a look at your job contract and if employer offers worse conditions than for local workers, they'll give negative feedback and migration agency will reject visa application.

heneryville 10y ago

This year I relocated myself and my family (four kids) to Nicaragua. Both my wife and I speak fluent spanish, but I was very surprised by how hard and how expensive it was. Some things I learned: - Finding what you need is hard. We've got to buy a hula hoop for our kid's school. We don't know exactly where to go, and wind up driving around for 3 hours to find the right thing - Small things are hard. We spend hours each month waiting in lines at banks to pay the electricity bill, the water bill, the internet bill, rent, the plumber, the reservation fee for a beach house. I miss bill pay terribly. - Culture is vastly different. Where in the US I felt like our family was well put together, here we're considered a mess since we don't have a full time maid and 2 nannies. We tell ourselves that we don't care what people think about us, but you get tired of being judged all day But on the flip side, we've been here 5 months and have already seen 4 volcanoes, numerous beaches with world-class surfing, my kids are starting to learn Spanish, and it's been a wonderful time to focus on what's really important for us. I'd recommend it, but not to anyone. You've got to be prepared for this.

distances 10y ago
> here we're considered a mess since we don't have a full time maid and 2 nannies. We tell ourselves that we don't care what people think about us, but you get tired of being judged all day Perhaps worth noting that in some countries hiring domestic help is seen as a kind of social requirement if you're wealthy enough to do that. Basically for job creation. No idea what's the case in Nicaragua though.

mgrpowers 10y ago

Working from Mexico. Moving was hard but the payoff was worth it.

mlent 10y ago

For people interested in this topic, I've written a fair amount on the more nitty gritty aspects, as an American who relocated to Berlin, Germany. http://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job/ http://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job... http://notanomadblog.com/startup-jobs-berlin/ http://notanomadblog.com/startup-jobs-berlin/ http://notanomadblog.com/prepare-resume-international-job/ http://notanomadblog.com/prepare-resume-international-job/ If anyone is interested in this and needs a push in the right direction, I'd hope these links help you out! Also, if you're a Javascript developer who wants to live in Berlin, I'm trying to hire someone excellent. If that's you, please apply: https://sumup.workable.com/jobs/373611 https://sumup.workable.com/jobs/373611 Ok, enough self promotion. If anyone has questions about relocating to Germany or Berlin, HMU :)

wheels 10y ago
Well done on the guide. I'm used to being the crotchety Berlin emigration pedant on HN, and this actually gets almost everything right. The process you described is still probably the most common (and the one that I took around 15 years ago). Worth adding, however, is the new-ish Blue Card system, which allows folks with relevant education to get a visa for 6 months to look for a job, in theory, simplifies the visa application process a bit, and gives you a faster track to permanent residence. My wife is a more recent immigrant (from Eastern Europe) and was able to get permanent residence much faster than I did because she went the Blue Card route.
- dvdhnt 10y ago
  Not to be too prying, but you don't happen to have children do you? I do, very young, single digits, and would love to immigrate out of the US but healthcare, daycare, and schools for my children are priorities. Any thoughts on those there? I'd rather find out from the horse's mouth...
  - wheels 10y ago
    I do, but having spent virtually all of my adult life in Germany (36 now, moved here at 21), my sense of what's normal is the way that things are here. My son was born here and is a German citizen (which isn't automatic just by being born in Germany). He's 16 months old now. Healthcare and daycare aren't particularly difficult issues. The healthcare systems in developed countries are almost universally good. Health insurance is based on your income, rather than any pre-existing conditions or your job, and is universal. Day care is heavily subsidized. We pay €400/month because we're in the highest income bracket, but even that is being phased out next year (and up to now was only applied to kids from 1 to 3). Finding a day care spot can be annoying, but it's more of a chore than an impossibility. At our son's (public) day care, 55% of the kids have at least one non-German parent. We're not far enough for me to have anything more than a theoretical view on schools. Private schools are very rare here. Public schools are probably better than median US public schools. They're naturally in German, with the exception of (in Berlin) the JFK and Nelson Mandela schools, which are bi-lingual English and German. JFK specifically reserves spots for American kids. If the kids are young enough though, they'd probably pick up the language in an amazingly short span of time. (We don't have any special plans to send our kid to one of the bi-lingual schools. I'm fluent in German and my wife speaks it reasonably well, and we're both permanent residents here.)

mahdix 10y ago

This is exactly what I was looking for! Good resource at the right time!

LetBinding 10y ago

I am a data scientist working at a big firm in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have a PhD in CS with a specialization in AI / Machine Learning / NLP from a US university. I am from India. So I assume my nationality will be an immigration barrier in most countries. Is this something I should mention while formally applying?

tiatia 10y ago

One way plane ticket: 500 Dollar Fake Syrian passport that unlocks residency, shelter, food, pocket money and health insurance: 250 Dollar A German chancellor that is a criminal and is breaking German law and Agreements like Dublin III: priceless. There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there is MasterCard.

clock_tower 10y ago
You're going to put a fake passport on your credit card?! :)
- tiatia 10y ago
  Why not? Yes, it is illegal but nobody gives a f. in Germany. The rule of law has long been gone under former secret police agent Angela Merkel (please google "IM Erika").

zemanel 10y ago

SanomaTech (virtual org of Sanoma Media) is hiring in the Netherlands: https://github.com/sanoma https://github.com/sanoma https://youtube.com/channel/UCU7D3JL3AZr05cbp_BXAdrw https://youtube.com/channel/UCU7D3JL3AZr05cbp_BXAdrw