3 ms·

The Muslim in me is offended by these drawings. At the same time, I respect your right to draw something I find offensive. All cultures have their soft spots.

by zaidf 17y ago

The Muslim in me is offended by these drawings. At the same time, I respect your right to draw something I find offensive. All cultures have their soft spots. You have every legal right to hit those soft spots. And in most cases, nothing will happen - just like you have a right to offend people, people have a right to be offended(without being violent, of course). Yet, when you play with emotions of millions of people, simple numbers dictate that a few will go apeshit. And when they do, they should be punished. I don't see us having a EVERYBODY USE THE N-WORD DAY. How come? Largely because it will get your ass kicked. Now, you can argue that n-word is different than these cartoons because it is based on more solid and recent events. Fair enough - but I thought this whole debate was about free speech? Specifically, that free speech should not get you killed or your ass kicked no matter what. Yet in each society, you will find speech that will get your ass kicked.

lenley 17y ago
um sorry, but that's not even in the same category of parody / satire. The Qur'an doesn't explicitly forbid visual depictions of Muhammad.
- zaidf 17y ago
  See, I am not even debating on the basis of what the Qur'an forbids. I am all about emotions. Every culture has random shit that upsets them. And if you keep hitting the soft spot again and again, a few wackos from those societies will go crazy. There is no need to even goto the Qu'ran for this - just understand that every culture, every religion has soft spots which when hit hard enough, will make a few go crazy. To think that you can change these super, super minority via logic is lame. To think this can change the view of a larger audience - there's nothing to change...super vast majority of Muslims are just offended when they find these stories and then go about their daily business. For me, it's like some dude cursing at my Mom. For 99.99% of the time, I will laugh it off. But do that enough times and to enough people and someone will be very ticked off.
  - ezy 17y ago
    Honestly, I think a majority of the time, people mock it because they don't understand it. I don't. I believe what you say about being offended entirely, but I find it almost impossible to wrap my head around the idea. Getting mortally offended by just a picture of a historical figure -- is just wierd. Now, I could understand some mean mockery being offensive. A better example than the N word people have been using would be drawing MLK eating watermelom in blackface. That's really offensive, and unnecessary. You have to go out of your way to do something like that. But just a depiction of Mhd. in a lightly humorous or non-mocking context or a context that is ambiguous just doesn't seem like it would be a that much of gut punch -- taking that kind of offense just seems really thin-skinned to me and borne of silly religious dogma... (sorry). I'm fully willing to admit that I "don't get it", however. :-)
Robin_Message 17y ago
So you're saying that we shouldn't do things if people threaten us? Do you really believe that? A "EVERYBODY USE THE N-WORD DAY" is unlikely to happen -- precisely because no-one would actual kill someone for drawing a cartoon offensive to black people, even if it called them all niggers or something. You see, I did it there but I won't even get any death threats. Contrast with someone drawing one cartoon and actually being killed, you know, his blood splashed across the ground. Also, it's one thing some kids never learn at school -- if you can't take a bit of teasing, then you get picked on. If you get picked on, you either: get miserable, get used to being teased, or become the crazy kid, the one even the bullies won't touch, who kicks and bites, and even the teachers despise. But they're not in school any more, and they need to grow up. Take offence if you want, but threats, violence and murder are a child's solution.
- zaidf 17y ago
  Contrast with someone drawing one cartoon and actually being killed, you know, his blood splashed across the ground. One nutcase's actions should result in offending millions more who express their hurt in their own homes quietly. If a guy killed another for using the n-word, I would not be rooting for a LETS HAVE AN N-WORD DAY and offend millions others who have little to do with that one nutcase. Perhaps you and I are sensitive to different things. So you're saying that we shouldn't do things if people threaten us? If a few guys threaten you, do you offend millions others just so you can get back at the few idiots?
  - Robin_Message 17y ago
    That is a fair point. I am not brave or sure enough to post my rebuttal, so I accept your argument that, in the case of solitary nutcases, or a few idiots, it is not right to offend the majority.
Kadin 17y ago
I think you raise a pretty decent point, but if some comedian who makes use of "the n-word" were to suddenly start getting death threats, or actual attempts on their life, from some militant group that felt offended by the word's use, then I probably would support an "everybody use the n-word day", purely as a stance against acting out of fear. But most people avoid that word not out of fear that they'll be murdered, but because they legitimately don't want to cause offense. But if some fringe group started trying to enforce our little social prohibition on the n-word by force and fear, I would expect that lots of people would start to push back -- and anyone who happened to be offended would just have to live with it. A very similar thing happened with flag-burning. I've seen a lot more flag-burnings (in the U.S., of the U.S. flag) done in protest of laws against flag-burning than I've ever seen them as standalone political statements. The people doing these burnings probably never would have done them except that they're offended by the heavyhanded prohibition. With the possible exception of the very first one, the people drawing pictures of Muhammad generally aren't doing it to make fun of Islam, they're doing it to take a strong stance against (and mock) those who would use fear to push their morality. The underlying idea, I think, is to make it very clear to militant groups that they can't get their way via force and fear. The more they try to intimidate, the louder and more offensive the opposition is going to get.
- zaidf 17y ago
  I probably would support an "everybody use the n-word day", purely as a stance against acting out of fear. That's cool, we just have a simple disagreement there. I wouldn't want to offend millions in the process of getting back at a fringe group. Also, don't quote me on this but I think the very first cartoon that triggered all of this was done by a guy specifically to rub it in and cause hurt--and not as an innocent comedic act. I don't think you would start a LETS USE N-WORD DAY if you knew the guy getting the threats was purposely using the n-word to provoke a reaction. Would you?
  - EliAndrewC 17y ago
    > Also, don't quote me on this but I think the very first cartoon that triggered all of this was done by a guy specifically to rub it in and cause hurt--and not as an innocent comedic act. If you're referring to the bomb-in-the-turban cartoon which was published in the Danish newspaper, then that probably isn't true. I'll quote the newspaper editor who ran the cartoons: "One cartoon -- depicting the prophet with a bomb in his turban -- has drawn the harshest criticism. Angry voices claim the cartoon is saying that the prophet is a terrorist or that every Muslim is a terrorist. I read it differently: Some individuals have taken the religion of Islam hostage by committing terrorist acts in the name of the prophet. They are the ones who have given the religion a bad name. The cartoon also plays into the fairy tale about Aladdin and the orange that fell into his turban and made his fortune. This suggests that the bomb comes from the outside world and is not an inherent characteristic of the prophet." I recommend reading the full NYT editorial from which I drew that quote, called "Why I Published Those Cartoons", which can be found at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02...
mshafrir 17y ago
Also, your ethnicity, country of origin, or skin color is not something you can control. The arbitrary set of beliefs you happened to be introduced to when you were born is.

by zaidf 17y ago

lenley 17y ago

um sorry, but that's not even in the same category of parody / satire. The Qur'an doesn't explicitly forbid visual depictions of Muhammad.

zaidf 17y ago
See, I am not even debating on the basis of what the Qur'an forbids. I am all about emotions. Every culture has random shit that upsets them. And if you keep hitting the soft spot again and again, a few wackos from those societies will go crazy. There is no need to even goto the Qu'ran for this - just understand that every culture, every religion has soft spots which when hit hard enough, will make a few go crazy. To think that you can change these super, super minority via logic is lame. To think this can change the view of a larger audience - there's nothing to change...super vast majority of Muslims are just offended when they find these stories and then go about their daily business. For me, it's like some dude cursing at my Mom. For 99.99% of the time, I will laugh it off. But do that enough times and to enough people and someone will be very ticked off.
- ezy 17y ago
  Honestly, I think a majority of the time, people mock it because they don't understand it. I don't. I believe what you say about being offended entirely, but I find it almost impossible to wrap my head around the idea. Getting mortally offended by just a picture of a historical figure -- is just wierd. Now, I could understand some mean mockery being offensive. A better example than the N word people have been using would be drawing MLK eating watermelom in blackface. That's really offensive, and unnecessary. You have to go out of your way to do something like that. But just a depiction of Mhd. in a lightly humorous or non-mocking context or a context that is ambiguous just doesn't seem like it would be a that much of gut punch -- taking that kind of offense just seems really thin-skinned to me and borne of silly religious dogma... (sorry). I'm fully willing to admit that I "don't get it", however. :-)

Robin_Message 17y ago

So you're saying that we shouldn't do things if people threaten us? Do you really believe that? A "EVERYBODY USE THE N-WORD DAY" is unlikely to happen -- precisely because no-one would actual kill someone for drawing a cartoon offensive to black people, even if it called them all niggers or something. You see, I did it there but I won't even get any death threats. Contrast with someone drawing one cartoon and actually being killed, you know, his blood splashed across the ground. Also, it's one thing some kids never learn at school -- if you can't take a bit of teasing, then you get picked on. If you get picked on, you either: get miserable, get used to being teased, or become the crazy kid, the one even the bullies won't touch, who kicks and bites, and even the teachers despise. But they're not in school any more, and they need to grow up. Take offence if you want, but threats, violence and murder are a child's solution.

zaidf 17y ago
Contrast with someone drawing one cartoon and actually being killed, you know, his blood splashed across the ground. One nutcase's actions should result in offending millions more who express their hurt in their own homes quietly. If a guy killed another for using the n-word, I would not be rooting for a LETS HAVE AN N-WORD DAY and offend millions others who have little to do with that one nutcase. Perhaps you and I are sensitive to different things. So you're saying that we shouldn't do things if people threaten us? If a few guys threaten you, do you offend millions others just so you can get back at the few idiots?
- Robin_Message 17y ago
  That is a fair point. I am not brave or sure enough to post my rebuttal, so I accept your argument that, in the case of solitary nutcases, or a few idiots, it is not right to offend the majority.

Kadin 17y ago

I think you raise a pretty decent point, but if some comedian who makes use of "the n-word" were to suddenly start getting death threats, or actual attempts on their life, from some militant group that felt offended by the word's use, then I probably would support an "everybody use the n-word day", purely as a stance against acting out of fear. But most people avoid that word not out of fear that they'll be murdered, but because they legitimately don't want to cause offense. But if some fringe group started trying to enforce our little social prohibition on the n-word by force and fear, I would expect that lots of people would start to push back -- and anyone who happened to be offended would just have to live with it. A very similar thing happened with flag-burning. I've seen a lot more flag-burnings (in the U.S., of the U.S. flag) done in protest of laws against flag-burning than I've ever seen them as standalone political statements. The people doing these burnings probably never would have done them except that they're offended by the heavyhanded prohibition. With the possible exception of the very first one, the people drawing pictures of Muhammad generally aren't doing it to make fun of Islam, they're doing it to take a strong stance against (and mock) those who would use fear to push their morality. The underlying idea, I think, is to make it very clear to militant groups that they can't get their way via force and fear. The more they try to intimidate, the louder and more offensive the opposition is going to get.

zaidf 17y ago
I probably would support an "everybody use the n-word day", purely as a stance against acting out of fear. That's cool, we just have a simple disagreement there. I wouldn't want to offend millions in the process of getting back at a fringe group. Also, don't quote me on this but I think the very first cartoon that triggered all of this was done by a guy specifically to rub it in and cause hurt--and not as an innocent comedic act. I don't think you would start a LETS USE N-WORD DAY if you knew the guy getting the threats was purposely using the n-word to provoke a reaction. Would you?
- EliAndrewC 17y ago
  > Also, don't quote me on this but I think the very first cartoon that triggered all of this was done by a guy specifically to rub it in and cause hurt--and not as an innocent comedic act. If you're referring to the bomb-in-the-turban cartoon which was published in the Danish newspaper, then that probably isn't true. I'll quote the newspaper editor who ran the cartoons: "One cartoon -- depicting the prophet with a bomb in his turban -- has drawn the harshest criticism. Angry voices claim the cartoon is saying that the prophet is a terrorist or that every Muslim is a terrorist. I read it differently: Some individuals have taken the religion of Islam hostage by committing terrorist acts in the name of the prophet. They are the ones who have given the religion a bad name. The cartoon also plays into the fairy tale about Aladdin and the orange that fell into his turban and made his fortune. This suggests that the bomb comes from the outside world and is not an inherent characteristic of the prophet." I recommend reading the full NYT editorial from which I drew that quote, called "Why I Published Those Cartoons", which can be found at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02...

mshafrir 17y ago

Also, your ethnicity, country of origin, or skin color is not something you can control. The arbitrary set of beliefs you happened to be introduced to when you were born is.