4 ms·

don't agree with the comment you quote. What I like about the Economist article (discussed here) is that it does not need terms like "bunch of elites" or "attem

don't agree with the comment you quote. What I like about the Economist article (discussed here) is that it does not need terms like "bunch of elites" or "attempts at building an interconnected globalised world are beginning to fail" to explain the phenomenon of nationalism. Instead, it points (far down, in the 'Nations once again' section) to factors like pessimism in industrialized countries, nationalism as "a cheap and easy way to generate enthusiasm for the state, and to deflect blame for what is wrong" and the role of social media. Moreover, I like that there's a sort-of positive bit at the end as it points out that young people are still overwhelmingly globalists, so the current trend towards nationalism could be reversed soon.

tomp 10y ago
I found the article pretty lacking. It failed to even mention what is in my opinion the most important, and the most significant reason for Trump/Brexit/Le Pen: that the elites might be wrong. Why is diversity good? Why is it better to not offend people rather than preserve free speech? Why would immigration, especially uncontrollable immigration, be beneficial? What if some cultures are better? And even if they're not, why is it bad for Westerners to like their own culture? Why should we respect foreign cultures if they don't respect our own? Why should you lose your job if you make a joke in public that some people deem offensive? Why is racism against whites and sexism against men acceptable? In the recent years, these questions weren't being asked and the "right" answer was just assumed by the elites. What's more, it was forbidden to even ask questions like these!
- drewrv 10y ago
  It's not that most of these questions are assumed, or that they're forbidden to talk about, it's that they're so obvious it's not even interesting to discuss. > Why is diversity good? If I need heart surgery, I want the most qualified heart surgeon. Not the most qualified white person born within N miles of me. > Why is it better to not offend people rather than preserve free speech? Free speech is doing quite well, it has never been easier to express yourself to a huge audience. > Why should you lose your job if you make a joke in public that some people deem offensive? Many people would rather find a new job than work with jerks. Companies are trying to protect the bottom line and it's easier to replace one person than many.
  - tomp 10y ago
    Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. I find your answers unconvincing and based on unspoken assumptions that aren't necessarily true.
  - niftich 10y ago
    > I want the most qualified heart surgeon This is not a question of diversity, it's a question of skills and accomplishments. Several countries have immigration policies to allow for the import of exceptional talent in in-demand fields [1][2][3]. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [2] https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-a-visa/about-visa/essential-skills-work-visa https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-... [3] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp
- marcell 10y ago
  Jumping in on a few of these questions (not all): > Why is diversity good? In America this isn't really a question of whether or not it's good. The fact is we have diversity already, because of our history. There's no question of if we should allow our country to become ethnically and culturally diverse. That's already happened. So the only question we can really ask is, how to make the best of it going forward? So I think (at least in the context of America) you've framed this question in a way that's missing the point, and designed to draw out straw man arguments. > Why should we respect foreign cultures if they don't respect our own? Respect is an interesting word. I think the answer is simple: it's just common decency. Growing up I've learned to be respectful of others, even if I disagree with them, and to not stoop to a nasty person's level. > Why is racism against whites and sexism against men acceptable? I don't think it's acceptable, and probably most people don't, but I know what you're getting at. White men feel like they aren't allowed to say certain things, or engage in certain arguments, or get reprimanded for seemingly innocuous comments. There isn't a simple answer there but I think everyone would benefit from some perspective taking. It's hard as a white person to understand what it means to be black, and it's hard for a man to understand what it means to be a woman. All that being said, the vast majority of policy and history in America has been written by white men. Take a look at this picture https://modernlifepodcastnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/Presidents.jpg https://modernlifepodcastnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/Pres... and note that all but 1 of them is a white man. Women were banned by law from voting in many (most?) states until 1920. Segregation was on the books in the south until the 1960's. And of course slavery was written into the constitution until the civil war. So I think there's a reason why people get annoyed when white men talk about sexism and racism: whatever small sexism / racism you may experience as a white man really pales in comparison to the monumental sexism / racism of American history, and also the very real and more substantial sexism / racism that non-white non-men continue to experience today.
- pwinnski 10y ago
  Some of those are great questions! Some seem less questions than jabs, but I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, so I'll assume the best. On diversity, we have ample evidence that it makes us smarter[0] and more productive[1]. I think that placing offense and free speech into opposition is a false dichotomy. I think it's better to offend people than to not offend people, although I'm hard-pressed to think of what evidence I'd offer for that other than to ask: would you rather be offended, or not offended? I rather suspect that most people would choose not to be offended. So if we choose to value non-offense, various issues flow from that, although I haven't seen any impact on the exercise of free speech (as evidenced by our recent election). On immigration, again, it turns out we have evidence for immigration being a net gain for the US economy[2]. There remains some question about the localized effects of those gains. Anecdotally, I suggest considering just how much of the Silicon Valley economy we discuss on this site revolves around companies started by immigrants or the children of immigrants. It's pretty staggering. After that, we start to get into questions of cultural which seem more fraught with peril, and I believe the questions assume too much, so I'll stop. I'll say only that these questions you claim are forbidden seem to be things I encounter just about daily online, despite answers being freely available (not just assumed), so I'm not sure how effective the forbidding has been. [0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-mak... [1] https://trailhead.salesforce.com/en/workplace_equality_diversity_and_inclusion/we_diversity_and_inclusion_what_they_are https://trailhead.salesforce.com/en/workplace_equality_diver... [2] http://www.epi.org/publication/immigration-facts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/immigration-facts/
  - tomp 10y ago
    We could further ask, do we want to be smarter and more productive? I always keep thinking about another research I've read about ([0] seems to be an article about it that I found just now, but I haven't searched hard for any rebuttals) that diverse communities experience less trust and less civic engagement. Basically, it makes sense that similar people want to stick together, and personally I see no reason why we shouldn't let them! (Conversely, those that prefer to live in diverse communities should also get the choice.) Another example is, plenty of Brexit voters knew that Brexit would be bad for economy, but supported it nevertheless because they expected other benefits to outweigh it, so I don't think arguments concerning the economy should overrule all other considerations. Btw, I disagree about free speech - it seems to be pretty dangerous (career-wise, if not life-wise) these days to offend people (see Tim Hunt, Donglegate, Justine Sacco). I guess my broader point was embedded in my original post - these questions have multiple answers, but not necessarily the right answer. People have different opinions and priorities, and they're not necessarily better or worse, just different. I think we should respect that and accommodate this kind of diversity ("opinion diversity") into our society, not try to exterminate it by shaming those that disagree with us and trying to change their minds. This is a great article that describes such a world: [1]. [0] http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/?page=4 http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/... [1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-communitarianism/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-...
drewrv 10y ago
I've come to hate the term elite. The fact that I enjoy imported goods and benefit from immigrant labor does not make me some sort of snob or powerful tycoon laughing at the devastation in the rust belt. It makes me a dude who eats at taco trucks and drives a VW.

tomp 10y ago

I found the article pretty lacking. It failed to even mention what is in my opinion the most important, and the most significant reason for Trump/Brexit/Le Pen: that the elites might be wrong. Why is diversity good? Why is it better to not offend people rather than preserve free speech? Why would immigration, especially uncontrollable immigration, be beneficial? What if some cultures are better? And even if they're not, why is it bad for Westerners to like their own culture? Why should we respect foreign cultures if they don't respect our own? Why should you lose your job if you make a joke in public that some people deem offensive? Why is racism against whites and sexism against men acceptable? In the recent years, these questions weren't being asked and the "right" answer was just assumed by the elites. What's more, it was forbidden to even ask questions like these!

drewrv 10y ago
It's not that most of these questions are assumed, or that they're forbidden to talk about, it's that they're so obvious it's not even interesting to discuss. > Why is diversity good? If I need heart surgery, I want the most qualified heart surgeon. Not the most qualified white person born within N miles of me. > Why is it better to not offend people rather than preserve free speech? Free speech is doing quite well, it has never been easier to express yourself to a huge audience. > Why should you lose your job if you make a joke in public that some people deem offensive? Many people would rather find a new job than work with jerks. Companies are trying to protect the bottom line and it's easier to replace one person than many.
- tomp 10y ago
  Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. I find your answers unconvincing and based on unspoken assumptions that aren't necessarily true.
- niftich 10y ago
  > I want the most qualified heart surgeon This is not a question of diversity, it's a question of skills and accomplishments. Several countries have immigration policies to allow for the import of exceptional talent in in-demand fields [1][2][3]. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [2] https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-a-visa/about-visa/essential-skills-work-visa https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-... [3] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/index.asp
marcell 10y ago
Jumping in on a few of these questions (not all): > Why is diversity good? In America this isn't really a question of whether or not it's good. The fact is we have diversity already, because of our history. There's no question of if we should allow our country to become ethnically and culturally diverse. That's already happened. So the only question we can really ask is, how to make the best of it going forward? So I think (at least in the context of America) you've framed this question in a way that's missing the point, and designed to draw out straw man arguments. > Why should we respect foreign cultures if they don't respect our own? Respect is an interesting word. I think the answer is simple: it's just common decency. Growing up I've learned to be respectful of others, even if I disagree with them, and to not stoop to a nasty person's level. > Why is racism against whites and sexism against men acceptable? I don't think it's acceptable, and probably most people don't, but I know what you're getting at. White men feel like they aren't allowed to say certain things, or engage in certain arguments, or get reprimanded for seemingly innocuous comments. There isn't a simple answer there but I think everyone would benefit from some perspective taking. It's hard as a white person to understand what it means to be black, and it's hard for a man to understand what it means to be a woman. All that being said, the vast majority of policy and history in America has been written by white men. Take a look at this picture https://modernlifepodcastnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/Presidents.jpg https://modernlifepodcastnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/Pres... and note that all but 1 of them is a white man. Women were banned by law from voting in many (most?) states until 1920. Segregation was on the books in the south until the 1960's. And of course slavery was written into the constitution until the civil war. So I think there's a reason why people get annoyed when white men talk about sexism and racism: whatever small sexism / racism you may experience as a white man really pales in comparison to the monumental sexism / racism of American history, and also the very real and more substantial sexism / racism that non-white non-men continue to experience today.
pwinnski 10y ago
Some of those are great questions! Some seem less questions than jabs, but I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, so I'll assume the best. On diversity, we have ample evidence that it makes us smarter[0] and more productive[1]. I think that placing offense and free speech into opposition is a false dichotomy. I think it's better to offend people than to not offend people, although I'm hard-pressed to think of what evidence I'd offer for that other than to ask: would you rather be offended, or not offended? I rather suspect that most people would choose not to be offended. So if we choose to value non-offense, various issues flow from that, although I haven't seen any impact on the exercise of free speech (as evidenced by our recent election). On immigration, again, it turns out we have evidence for immigration being a net gain for the US economy[2]. There remains some question about the localized effects of those gains. Anecdotally, I suggest considering just how much of the Silicon Valley economy we discuss on this site revolves around companies started by immigrants or the children of immigrants. It's pretty staggering. After that, we start to get into questions of cultural which seem more fraught with peril, and I believe the questions assume too much, so I'll stop. I'll say only that these questions you claim are forbidden seem to be things I encounter just about daily online, despite answers being freely available (not just assumed), so I'm not sure how effective the forbidding has been. [0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-mak... [1] https://trailhead.salesforce.com/en/workplace_equality_diversity_and_inclusion/we_diversity_and_inclusion_what_they_are https://trailhead.salesforce.com/en/workplace_equality_diver... [2] http://www.epi.org/publication/immigration-facts/ http://www.epi.org/publication/immigration-facts/
- tomp 10y ago
  We could further ask, do we want to be smarter and more productive? I always keep thinking about another research I've read about ([0] seems to be an article about it that I found just now, but I haven't searched hard for any rebuttals) that diverse communities experience less trust and less civic engagement. Basically, it makes sense that similar people want to stick together, and personally I see no reason why we shouldn't let them! (Conversely, those that prefer to live in diverse communities should also get the choice.) Another example is, plenty of Brexit voters knew that Brexit would be bad for economy, but supported it nevertheless because they expected other benefits to outweigh it, so I don't think arguments concerning the economy should overrule all other considerations. Btw, I disagree about free speech - it seems to be pretty dangerous (career-wise, if not life-wise) these days to offend people (see Tim Hunt, Donglegate, Justine Sacco). I guess my broader point was embedded in my original post - these questions have multiple answers, but not necessarily the right answer. People have different opinions and priorities, and they're not necessarily better or worse, just different. I think we should respect that and accommodate this kind of diversity ("opinion diversity") into our society, not try to exterminate it by shaming those that disagree with us and trying to change their minds. This is a great article that describes such a world: [1]. [0] http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/?page=4 http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/... [1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-communitarianism/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-...

drewrv 10y ago

I've come to hate the term elite. The fact that I enjoy imported goods and benefit from immigrant labor does not make me some sort of snob or powerful tycoon laughing at the devastation in the rust belt. It makes me a dude who eats at taco trucks and drives a VW.