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>Worthless bastards, one and all. Why write this crap? The labour party is the biggest left wing party in Europe, are you saying everyone inside it is worthless

>Worthless bastards, one and all. Why write this crap? The labour party is the biggest left wing party in Europe, are you saying everyone inside it is worthless?

pjc50 10y ago
They are also staggeringly ineffective and can't seem to decide what they stand for. Miliband was OK despite the "controls on immigration" equivocation, but since then the party has turned into a circular firing squad. Going back into history, I'm fairly sure we saw attempts at invasive surveillance under Blair's Labour; Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and the failed ID cards scheme. It's not even clear whether they're able to oppose Brexit.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Are they willing to oppose? Looking at it from the continent, it seems to me that Corbyn is entirely happy with getting out of EU, and is only "opposed" because he's supposed to be "in opposition".
- DonaldFisk 10y ago
  That's because Blair's Labour Party was as right wing and authoritarian as the Tories they replaced. Both Corbyn's supporters and opponents know well what they stand for. The problem is it isn't the same things. The only people who have any moral right to oppose Brexit are the Scottish nationalists and the Northern Irish republicans. England and Wales voted to leave.
  - petercooper 10y ago
    That's because Blair's Labour Party was as right wing [..] as the Tories they replaced. That's revisionist, and demonstrably false. The Blair government brought in gay adoption, a minimum wage, the Freedom of Information Act, the Human Rights Act, civil partnerships, banned fox hunting with dogs, increased NHS investment by >25% in real terms, achieved the lowest unemployment in 50 years, slashed child poverty, and more. Minimum wage alone was considered a bold left wing move at the time. Blair made modern Tories softer, if anything. It's sad that the Iraq debacle caused people to write off what was the most progressive and beneficial government this country had seen in decades - I can't see how anyone could equate it to the governments of Major or Thatcher.
    - pjc50 10y ago
      I think it's a good example of why a simple left-right dichotomy doesn't cut it. The Blair government had a lot of great social-democrat policies and was genuinely redistributive. It also relied on control-freakery and media management; all policy had to come from the Blair-Campbell office. There was no mechanism for incorporating friendly critique. And some of its policy was genuinely illiberal, especially in the antiterrorism & surveillance area. That may have been a hidden tradeoff for taking on the security establishment enough to get a peace deal in NI.
    - DonaldFisk 10y ago
      I stand corrected. Still right wing, but less right wing than, and similarly authoritarian as, the Tories during Labour's time in government. Source: https://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010 https://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
    - toyg 10y ago
      It wasn't just Iraq - it was PFI, identity cards, workfare, privatize-everything and a bunch of other stuff including the above-mentioned (and already pretty crap) RIPA. The "tough on crime" tabloid-feed propaganda ended up creeping into their actual political platform (thanks to Blunkett and friends), and by the end Blair just wasn't listening to anyone, completely lost in a Catholic neocon trip with authoritarian undertones. It wasn't just people writing him off, it was him shutting out everyone else and refusing to reconsider what had become untenable positions.
  - leonroy 10y ago
    Not hugely true. Blair's government improved the NHS and vastly improved the mess with Railtrack and decades of Tory underfunding of the railways. They were more right wing than the proceeding labor administration which was what 1979? But then that's probably a good thing otherwise they'd never have been voted into office. Parties have to shift with public sentiment and clearly Blair saw that and shifted to the New Labour ideology as evidenced by his 1997 landslide.
BenElgar 10y ago
There's an important difference between the members of the party and its members of parliament.
chestnut-tree 10y ago
The Labour Party's abstention on this bill is unforgivable. We need to hold the Conservative government to account for their deceit and utter incompetence. We need a strong opposition party now more than ever. But Labour have completely failed in that regard. Yes, I realise Labour is up against our mostly Labour-hating right-wing national press who seem as culpable as our politicians in perpetuating lies and untruths to push their own agenda. (Is there any country in Europe that has a national press as vile, racist, and nasty as our national press in the UK?) Labour should be pummelling the Conservative party for their endless lies and dishonesty. They should have ripped the Conservatives to shreds over this bill (as they should have for Brexit too). Politics in the UK has never felt so oppressive, depressing and dysfunctional in recent memory than it is now. And it's probably only going to get worse.

>Worthless bastards, one and all. Why write this crap? The labour party is the biggest left wing party in Europe, are you saying everyone inside it is worthless?

pjc50 10y ago

They are also staggeringly ineffective and can't seem to decide what they stand for. Miliband was OK despite the "controls on immigration" equivocation, but since then the party has turned into a circular firing squad. Going back into history, I'm fairly sure we saw attempts at invasive surveillance under Blair's Labour; Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and the failed ID cards scheme. It's not even clear whether they're able to oppose Brexit.

ptaipale 10y ago
Are they willing to oppose? Looking at it from the continent, it seems to me that Corbyn is entirely happy with getting out of EU, and is only "opposed" because he's supposed to be "in opposition".
DonaldFisk 10y ago
That's because Blair's Labour Party was as right wing and authoritarian as the Tories they replaced. Both Corbyn's supporters and opponents know well what they stand for. The problem is it isn't the same things. The only people who have any moral right to oppose Brexit are the Scottish nationalists and the Northern Irish republicans. England and Wales voted to leave.
- petercooper 10y ago
  That's because Blair's Labour Party was as right wing [..] as the Tories they replaced. That's revisionist, and demonstrably false. The Blair government brought in gay adoption, a minimum wage, the Freedom of Information Act, the Human Rights Act, civil partnerships, banned fox hunting with dogs, increased NHS investment by >25% in real terms, achieved the lowest unemployment in 50 years, slashed child poverty, and more. Minimum wage alone was considered a bold left wing move at the time. Blair made modern Tories softer, if anything. It's sad that the Iraq debacle caused people to write off what was the most progressive and beneficial government this country had seen in decades - I can't see how anyone could equate it to the governments of Major or Thatcher.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    I think it's a good example of why a simple left-right dichotomy doesn't cut it. The Blair government had a lot of great social-democrat policies and was genuinely redistributive. It also relied on control-freakery and media management; all policy had to come from the Blair-Campbell office. There was no mechanism for incorporating friendly critique. And some of its policy was genuinely illiberal, especially in the antiterrorism & surveillance area. That may have been a hidden tradeoff for taking on the security establishment enough to get a peace deal in NI.
  - DonaldFisk 10y ago
    I stand corrected. Still right wing, but less right wing than, and similarly authoritarian as, the Tories during Labour's time in government. Source: https://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010 https://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
  - toyg 10y ago
    It wasn't just Iraq - it was PFI, identity cards, workfare, privatize-everything and a bunch of other stuff including the above-mentioned (and already pretty crap) RIPA. The "tough on crime" tabloid-feed propaganda ended up creeping into their actual political platform (thanks to Blunkett and friends), and by the end Blair just wasn't listening to anyone, completely lost in a Catholic neocon trip with authoritarian undertones. It wasn't just people writing him off, it was him shutting out everyone else and refusing to reconsider what had become untenable positions.
- leonroy 10y ago
  Not hugely true. Blair's government improved the NHS and vastly improved the mess with Railtrack and decades of Tory underfunding of the railways. They were more right wing than the proceeding labor administration which was what 1979? But then that's probably a good thing otherwise they'd never have been voted into office. Parties have to shift with public sentiment and clearly Blair saw that and shifted to the New Labour ideology as evidenced by his 1997 landslide.

BenElgar 10y ago

There's an important difference between the members of the party and its members of parliament.

chestnut-tree 10y ago

The Labour Party's abstention on this bill is unforgivable. We need to hold the Conservative government to account for their deceit and utter incompetence. We need a strong opposition party now more than ever. But Labour have completely failed in that regard. Yes, I realise Labour is up against our mostly Labour-hating right-wing national press who seem as culpable as our politicians in perpetuating lies and untruths to push their own agenda. (Is there any country in Europe that has a national press as vile, racist, and nasty as our national press in the UK?) Labour should be pummelling the Conservative party for their endless lies and dishonesty. They should have ripped the Conservatives to shreds over this bill (as they should have for Brexit too). Politics in the UK has never felt so oppressive, depressing and dysfunctional in recent memory than it is now. And it's probably only going to get worse.