17 ms·

The U.S. Census Bureau Gave Up Names of Japanese-Americans in WWII (2007)

149 points by goblin89 10y ago

Lordarminius 10y ago
Excerpts from the article: 1."What it suggests is that the statistical information was used at the microlevel for surveillance of civilian populations, ... (appears suspiciously similar to what is occurring now) 2. "At the time, available evidence (and Bureau lore) held that there had been no … release of microdata," (Hahaha) 3. The Census Bureau has improved its confidentiality practices considerably in the last six decades, former director Prewitt says. (How could this be? The government requested and the govenment got the information. It happened then, it could happen now.) The more things change the more they remain the same. To be fair anyway, the picture is not black and white. The government had a real and valid fear (proven wrong by events) that the japanese population could be used to foment trouble in the states during the war. However the action still does leave a bad impression
nacs 10y ago
I wonder if they'll do the same for Muslim Americans for the upcoming presidential term.
- CapitalistCartr 10y ago
  I'm certain the federal government as a whole already does. Various TLAs hand over data to the FBI easily, 'cuz terrorists. The census dept. is no longer important, compared to others, such as NSA, NRO, etc.
thesehands 10y ago
"I'm sad to learn it," he says of the new discovery. "It would be sadder yet to continue to deny that it happened, if, as now seems clear, it did happen. You cannot learn from and correct past mistakes unless you know about them." I wonder if this will ever be said about Snowden in the NSA
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  >> You cannot learn from and correct past mistakes unless you know about them. I must getting older, because I see this statement a lot and when you look back, its clear we never do learn from our past mistakes.
  - ythn 10y ago
    > I must getting older, because I see this statement a lot and when you look back, its clear we never do learn from our past mistakes. Hence the current JavaScript development stack(s)
  - knz 10y ago
    Sure we do. Every living person is here because someone learned from their past mistakes at some point. Implying that "we" don't learn from our mistakes is suggesting that we are all complicit when in reality I'm not sure most Americans even support programs like registering people based upon their religion. You could argue that every vote for Trump was condoning this policy but I think that is too simplistic. The real issue is that we still don't have an effective means to resist the stranglehold that certain interests have on those in power and we have a shortage of inspirational leaders willing to tell the truth rather than whatever the crowd wants to hear.
  - mtgx 10y ago
    It's okay, "we need to look forward" - so that Trump can now hire the exact same torturers and torture architects that Obama pardoned. Hopefully now people finally realize what a dumb "mistake" that was, to think and act like that post an administration like Bush's. Will the next Democrat president act the same way about Trump's administration's crimes? Probably, especially if people don't criticize him or her about it, because they would be too busy patting themselves on the back for beating the Republicans in the election.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > I see this statement a lot and when you look back, its clear we never do learn from our past mistakes. Well, we do. We have greatly improved (but not sufficient) civil rights for minorities and women, European wars are a thing of the past (hopefully), we have mechanisms that have prevented economic depressions for over 70 years, etc. But it's not a spectator sport. If I sit back and say, 'we haven't learned', then in effect I'm the one who hasn't learned. Democracy relies on its citizens to come forward, speak up, organize, and act. I've read many great leaders complain that their biggest obstacle isn't their enemies, but those sitting on their hands.
alistproducer2 10y ago
Why is anyone surprised? If we should've learned anything from the last couple of weeks, it should be that it turns out that despite recent progress, America hasn't strayed far from its roots. The powers of government have long been used as a weapon against various groups over our history. All that's happened recently is the removing of the mask.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  um, well, if you're going to take it in that direction... FDR was a democrat.
  - alistproducer2 10y ago
    I'm not sure I get your point.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - burkaman 10y ago
    Why do so many people think this is a useful point? Who cares what party someone is in?
    - beachstartup 10y ago
      that's exactly my point! neither party has some kind of monopoly on intolerant ideas.
      - burkaman 10y ago
        Then why bring it up?
        beachstartup 10y ago
        i don't think there's any reason to engage with you because you're just willfully ignoring the implication of the text i responded to. see ya.
jayess 10y ago
Wait, what? Government can't be trusted?!?!?
marchenko 10y ago
The Obama White House has proposed adding a new racial category for Middle Easterners to the census. It is a poor plan for many reasons; now we have another. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/30/white-house-wants-add-new-racial-category-middle-eastern-people/91322064/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/30/white...
- mc32 10y ago
  It's not that unusual. The UK's IC codes[1] are more fine grained than those in the US. With all the information organizations have on people, I'm not sure the government having official classifications makes any difference. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_codes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_codes
  - ue_ 10y ago
    If my memory is correct, the Japanese census does not collect data on ethnicity/race at all.
    - mc32 10y ago
      Did they have need to, given they are pretty homogeneous? On the other hand you have to register with the local Koseki[1] and last names are positive indicators of ethnicity for the non-Japanese [except for haafu with ethnic Japanese fathers]. On the other hand, France by law does not track race characteristics, so they can't rely on census statistics to know how well or poorly a population is doing. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki
      - ue_ 10y ago
        The irony is that we don't know, other than anecdotally or non-official sources, how racially/ethically homogeneous Japan is, unless I am mistaken. Is it not true that non-citizens do not have entries in the koseki system? I may be misunderstanding. Is it not also true that on becoming a citizen, a "Japanese name" must be selected? Though I habe heard that such a name can be entirely in katakana, and simply a transliteration of a Western or Chinese name. I know however that one may select an entirely "native Japanese" name upon naturalisation.
neves 10y ago
How do we know that they won't give muslin citizen's data to Trump?
tdkl 10y ago
Well there are no records of any Japanese running around with katanas chopping heads from that time. On the other hand in blindly immigrant accepting Europe though... We learned our lesson since last year.
- pavlov 10y ago
  Are you joking? The Japanese military committed many atrocities in invaded countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
  - venomsnake 10y ago
    I think the GP meant civilian Americans chopping other Americans heads with katanas. Also isn't the katana mostly stabbing weapon? Slicing someone in two requires too much effort IMO.
    - douche 10y ago
      I was under the impression that katanas are primarily slashing weapons[1], as is generally the case with long single-edged blades [1] http://www.systemofstrategy.com/articles/the-truth-about-tantos.html http://www.systemofstrategy.com/articles/the-truth-about-tan...
    - greenshackle2 10y ago
      From the little kendo I did, it's both, but mostly slashing. You wouldn't so much slice them in two as open them up from shoulder to hip, if you can. If you're going for the neck though, the basic technique is throat-stabbing, not slicing the head off. If the enemy has good armor, I guess you'd have to go stabby, I can't imagine a katana can slice through good steel plates (or mail, really). But 1) the spear is the stabby weapon of choice when not in close quarters. From horseback you'd only use the katana to slice. Certainly, you wouldn't try stabbing someone with a katana from horseback. And 2) the Japanese mostly didn't have excellent armor. They had shitty iron, so making good steel was very expensive for them. They couldn't have mass-produced steel plate armor. The amazing thing about katanas is not that they're better than european swords (they're not), it's that they were able to make good weapons at all out of shit-tier iron.
mikeash 10y ago
A sad chapter in our history. What's terrifying to me is that many prominent people still defend it today. And not just people associated with the winner of the recent presidential election.
- colmvp 10y ago
  Interesting fact: Korematsu v. United States, the Supreme Court decision upholding the internment of Japanese Americans, was never explicitly overruled by the Supreme Court because there has not been a similar controversy before the court.
rmc 10y ago
Looks like the EU decision that people shouldn't have to transfer data to the USA is a good move.
rmc 10y ago
France doesn't ask for or record race/ethnicity on its censuses for exactly this reason. If you don't store it, you can't be made to give it up.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  Nowadays you can do it with drone, camera and facial recognition software. If president Le Pen needs the info she could get in 2 days.
  - madamelic 10y ago
    That would take the complicity of hundreds, if not thousands, of people. I doubt it would exactly be a secret or entirely quick, implementing racial recognition on a national scale. Releasing information, especially today, takes only a few (Let's ignore bureaucracy and assume it takes only a few sign-offs to give away massive data dump legally)
  - rmc 10y ago
    Have you seen how the French protest? Especially the unions (which tend to be left wing). They were almost burning cars to stop Uber http://time.com/3935645/paris-taxi-drivers-protest-uber/ http://time.com/3935645/paris-taxi-drivers-protest-uber/ How long do you think such a drone programme would physically last? Antifa activists will literally start smashing things.
coldcode 10y ago
And they will again. More kinds of people.
tomjen3 10y ago
And nobody goes to prison for it. Nobodies legacy is tarnished. Why are we even talking about this?
jellicle 10y ago
The US government can contact one of the many consumer data brokers and obtain a list of every Muslim in America in about five minutes. They have no need to use the Census or anything else. "Experian’s Ethnic InsightSM is a comprehensive predictive name analysis process that identifies the ethnic origin, probable religion and language preferences of individuals."
pessimizer 10y ago
It would be far more difficult for President Pence to round up all of the homosexuals as he promised, but luckily for him, now we have Facebook and Google. Also, if Obama and Clinton hadn't protected and enabled the NSA, and completely ignored the mass data collection of private companies, it wouldn't be far too late for people afraid of being targeted to delete their accounts now. Why shouldn't people want to share their real names online? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, Muslim.
SixSigma 10y ago
http://ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://ibmandtheholocaust.com/ IBM was contracted to collect census data for many of the European govts. with their wonderful new Hollerith machines in the 1930s. This was then passed on / sold to the Third Reich and used to filter who went where. You didn't think it was all done with pencil and paper did you ?
- hackuser 10y ago
  Allegedly, IBM also was the subcontractor who ran the internment camps (or some part of them) for American citizens of Japanese ancestry.
sybhn 10y ago
This is a great precedent to why folks don't want to register their firearms.
hackuser 10y ago
If this bothers you, what are you doing about it? Is your company retaining data that can be used against your customers? Is it implementing tech (end-to-end encryption, data minimization, anonymization, decentralization, etc.) to reduce their exposure? Don't wait until someone shows up with a NSL, claiming all Muslims are terrorists and therefore spying on everyone who believes in Islam or is suspected of being a friend of a Muslim person is a national security issue. Then it will be too late. Start now. We are all responsible for what happens next. Are you calling your elected representatives? Let them know now that you abhor civil rights violations, especially in the name of security, and will hold them accountable - now before they are caught up in sensationalized threats and secret briefings.
- lloyd-christmas 10y ago
  FWIW, there is currently city-level opposition to some of the upcoming administration's round-up threats. While not the Muslim part of it, NYC Mayor deBlasio has already promised protection of undocumented NYers. http://abc7ny.com/politics/mayor-says-if-trump-tries-to-deport-undocumented-immigrants-hell-destroy-idnyc-data/1609239/ http://abc7ny.com/politics/mayor-says-if-trump-tries-to-depo...
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  Throw a wrench into the works if this happens: report a bunch of your conservative Christian customers as Muslims. It'll suck for them but it serves them right anyway. (Make sure to leave the country before the authorities figure out what happened.)
  - hackuser 10y ago
    I would absolutely oppose this; everyone is due the same freedoms and rights. However, I think you are joking ...

149 points by goblin89 10y ago

Excerpts from the article: 1."What it suggests is that the statistical information was used at the microlevel for surveillance of civilian populations, ... (appears suspiciously similar to what is occurring now) 2. "At the time, available evidence (and Bureau lore) held that there had been no … release of microdata," (Hahaha) 3. The Census Bureau has improved its confidentiality practices considerably in the last six decades, former director Prewitt says. (How could this be? The government requested and the govenment got the information. It happened then, it could happen now.) The more things change the more they remain the same. To be fair anyway, the picture is not black and white. The government had a real and valid fear (proven wrong by events) that the japanese population could be used to foment trouble in the states during the war. However the action still does leave a bad impression

nacs 10y ago

I wonder if they'll do the same for Muslim Americans for the upcoming presidential term.

CapitalistCartr 10y ago
I'm certain the federal government as a whole already does. Various TLAs hand over data to the FBI easily, 'cuz terrorists. The census dept. is no longer important, compared to others, such as NSA, NRO, etc.

thesehands 10y ago

"I'm sad to learn it," he says of the new discovery. "It would be sadder yet to continue to deny that it happened, if, as now seems clear, it did happen. You cannot learn from and correct past mistakes unless you know about them." I wonder if this will ever be said about Snowden in the NSA

at-fates-hands 10y ago
>> You cannot learn from and correct past mistakes unless you know about them. I must getting older, because I see this statement a lot and when you look back, its clear we never do learn from our past mistakes.
- ythn 10y ago
  > I must getting older, because I see this statement a lot and when you look back, its clear we never do learn from our past mistakes. Hence the current JavaScript development stack(s)
- knz 10y ago
  Sure we do. Every living person is here because someone learned from their past mistakes at some point. Implying that "we" don't learn from our mistakes is suggesting that we are all complicit when in reality I'm not sure most Americans even support programs like registering people based upon their religion. You could argue that every vote for Trump was condoning this policy but I think that is too simplistic. The real issue is that we still don't have an effective means to resist the stranglehold that certain interests have on those in power and we have a shortage of inspirational leaders willing to tell the truth rather than whatever the crowd wants to hear.
- mtgx 10y ago
  It's okay, "we need to look forward" - so that Trump can now hire the exact same torturers and torture architects that Obama pardoned. Hopefully now people finally realize what a dumb "mistake" that was, to think and act like that post an administration like Bush's. Will the next Democrat president act the same way about Trump's administration's crimes? Probably, especially if people don't criticize him or her about it, because they would be too busy patting themselves on the back for beating the Republicans in the election.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > I see this statement a lot and when you look back, its clear we never do learn from our past mistakes. Well, we do. We have greatly improved (but not sufficient) civil rights for minorities and women, European wars are a thing of the past (hopefully), we have mechanisms that have prevented economic depressions for over 70 years, etc. But it's not a spectator sport. If I sit back and say, 'we haven't learned', then in effect I'm the one who hasn't learned. Democracy relies on its citizens to come forward, speak up, organize, and act. I've read many great leaders complain that their biggest obstacle isn't their enemies, but those sitting on their hands.

alistproducer2 10y ago

Why is anyone surprised? If we should've learned anything from the last couple of weeks, it should be that it turns out that despite recent progress, America hasn't strayed far from its roots. The powers of government have long been used as a weapon against various groups over our history. All that's happened recently is the removing of the mask.

beachstartup 10y ago
um, well, if you're going to take it in that direction... FDR was a democrat.
- alistproducer2 10y ago
  I'm not sure I get your point.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- burkaman 10y ago
  Why do so many people think this is a useful point? Who cares what party someone is in?
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    that's exactly my point! neither party has some kind of monopoly on intolerant ideas.
    - burkaman 10y ago
      Then why bring it up?
      - beachstartup 10y ago
        i don't think there's any reason to engage with you because you're just willfully ignoring the implication of the text i responded to. see ya.

jayess 10y ago

Wait, what? Government can't be trusted?!?!?

marchenko 10y ago

The Obama White House has proposed adding a new racial category for Middle Easterners to the census. It is a poor plan for many reasons; now we have another. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/30/white-house-wants-add-new-racial-category-middle-eastern-people/91322064/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/30/white...

mc32 10y ago
It's not that unusual. The UK's IC codes[1] are more fine grained than those in the US. With all the information organizations have on people, I'm not sure the government having official classifications makes any difference. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_codes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_codes
- ue_ 10y ago
  If my memory is correct, the Japanese census does not collect data on ethnicity/race at all.
  - mc32 10y ago
    Did they have need to, given they are pretty homogeneous? On the other hand you have to register with the local Koseki[1] and last names are positive indicators of ethnicity for the non-Japanese [except for haafu with ethnic Japanese fathers]. On the other hand, France by law does not track race characteristics, so they can't rely on census statistics to know how well or poorly a population is doing. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koseki
    - ue_ 10y ago
      The irony is that we don't know, other than anecdotally or non-official sources, how racially/ethically homogeneous Japan is, unless I am mistaken. Is it not true that non-citizens do not have entries in the koseki system? I may be misunderstanding. Is it not also true that on becoming a citizen, a "Japanese name" must be selected? Though I habe heard that such a name can be entirely in katakana, and simply a transliteration of a Western or Chinese name. I know however that one may select an entirely "native Japanese" name upon naturalisation.

neves 10y ago

How do we know that they won't give muslin citizen's data to Trump?

tdkl 10y ago

Well there are no records of any Japanese running around with katanas chopping heads from that time. On the other hand in blindly immigrant accepting Europe though... We learned our lesson since last year.

pavlov 10y ago
Are you joking? The Japanese military committed many atrocities in invaded countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
- venomsnake 10y ago
  I think the GP meant civilian Americans chopping other Americans heads with katanas. Also isn't the katana mostly stabbing weapon? Slicing someone in two requires too much effort IMO.
  - douche 10y ago
    I was under the impression that katanas are primarily slashing weapons[1], as is generally the case with long single-edged blades [1] http://www.systemofstrategy.com/articles/the-truth-about-tantos.html http://www.systemofstrategy.com/articles/the-truth-about-tan...
  - greenshackle2 10y ago
    From the little kendo I did, it's both, but mostly slashing. You wouldn't so much slice them in two as open them up from shoulder to hip, if you can. If you're going for the neck though, the basic technique is throat-stabbing, not slicing the head off. If the enemy has good armor, I guess you'd have to go stabby, I can't imagine a katana can slice through good steel plates (or mail, really). But 1) the spear is the stabby weapon of choice when not in close quarters. From horseback you'd only use the katana to slice. Certainly, you wouldn't try stabbing someone with a katana from horseback. And 2) the Japanese mostly didn't have excellent armor. They had shitty iron, so making good steel was very expensive for them. They couldn't have mass-produced steel plate armor. The amazing thing about katanas is not that they're better than european swords (they're not), it's that they were able to make good weapons at all out of shit-tier iron.

mikeash 10y ago

A sad chapter in our history. What's terrifying to me is that many prominent people still defend it today. And not just people associated with the winner of the recent presidential election.

colmvp 10y ago
Interesting fact: Korematsu v. United States, the Supreme Court decision upholding the internment of Japanese Americans, was never explicitly overruled by the Supreme Court because there has not been a similar controversy before the court.

rmc 10y ago

Looks like the EU decision that people shouldn't have to transfer data to the USA is a good move.

rmc 10y ago

France doesn't ask for or record race/ethnicity on its censuses for exactly this reason. If you don't store it, you can't be made to give it up.

venomsnake 10y ago
Nowadays you can do it with drone, camera and facial recognition software. If president Le Pen needs the info she could get in 2 days.
- madamelic 10y ago
  That would take the complicity of hundreds, if not thousands, of people. I doubt it would exactly be a secret or entirely quick, implementing racial recognition on a national scale. Releasing information, especially today, takes only a few (Let's ignore bureaucracy and assume it takes only a few sign-offs to give away massive data dump legally)
- rmc 10y ago
  Have you seen how the French protest? Especially the unions (which tend to be left wing). They were almost burning cars to stop Uber http://time.com/3935645/paris-taxi-drivers-protest-uber/ http://time.com/3935645/paris-taxi-drivers-protest-uber/ How long do you think such a drone programme would physically last? Antifa activists will literally start smashing things.

coldcode 10y ago

And they will again. More kinds of people.

tomjen3 10y ago

And nobody goes to prison for it. Nobodies legacy is tarnished. Why are we even talking about this?

jellicle 10y ago

The US government can contact one of the many consumer data brokers and obtain a list of every Muslim in America in about five minutes. They have no need to use the Census or anything else. "Experian’s Ethnic InsightSM is a comprehensive predictive name analysis process that identifies the ethnic origin, probable religion and language preferences of individuals."

pessimizer 10y ago

It would be far more difficult for President Pence to round up all of the homosexuals as he promised, but luckily for him, now we have Facebook and Google. Also, if Obama and Clinton hadn't protected and enabled the NSA, and completely ignored the mass data collection of private companies, it wouldn't be far too late for people afraid of being targeted to delete their accounts now. Why shouldn't people want to share their real names online? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, Muslim.

SixSigma 10y ago

http://ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://ibmandtheholocaust.com/ IBM was contracted to collect census data for many of the European govts. with their wonderful new Hollerith machines in the 1930s. This was then passed on / sold to the Third Reich and used to filter who went where. You didn't think it was all done with pencil and paper did you ?

hackuser 10y ago
Allegedly, IBM also was the subcontractor who ran the internment camps (or some part of them) for American citizens of Japanese ancestry.

sybhn 10y ago

This is a great precedent to why folks don't want to register their firearms.

hackuser 10y ago

If this bothers you, what are you doing about it? Is your company retaining data that can be used against your customers? Is it implementing tech (end-to-end encryption, data minimization, anonymization, decentralization, etc.) to reduce their exposure? Don't wait until someone shows up with a NSL, claiming all Muslims are terrorists and therefore spying on everyone who believes in Islam or is suspected of being a friend of a Muslim person is a national security issue. Then it will be too late. Start now. We are all responsible for what happens next. Are you calling your elected representatives? Let them know now that you abhor civil rights violations, especially in the name of security, and will hold them accountable - now before they are caught up in sensationalized threats and secret briefings.

lloyd-christmas 10y ago
FWIW, there is currently city-level opposition to some of the upcoming administration's round-up threats. While not the Muslim part of it, NYC Mayor deBlasio has already promised protection of undocumented NYers. http://abc7ny.com/politics/mayor-says-if-trump-tries-to-deport-undocumented-immigrants-hell-destroy-idnyc-data/1609239/ http://abc7ny.com/politics/mayor-says-if-trump-tries-to-depo...
Grishnakh 10y ago
Throw a wrench into the works if this happens: report a bunch of your conservative Christian customers as Muslims. It'll suck for them but it serves them right anyway. (Make sure to leave the country before the authorities figure out what happened.)
- hackuser 10y ago
  I would absolutely oppose this; everyone is due the same freedoms and rights. However, I think you are joking ...