4 ms·

> For example, the trans bathroom thing. I legitimately see both sides on that. How? Requiring trans people carry papers just so they can use the restroom does

> For example, the trans bathroom thing. I legitimately see both sides on that. How? Requiring trans people carry papers just so they can use the restroom doesn't strike you as just as little bit terrible? Trans people already use whichever bathroom they feel more safe and comfortable in: All these bathroom laws do is make life harder for members of what is already a very marginalized group. There's literally no positive aspect to them whatsoever.

aminorex 10y ago
All bathrooms matter.
jimmywanger 10y ago
> All these bathroom laws do is make life harder for members of what is already a very marginalized group. I've had discussions with psychologists and trans people. This illustrates the disconnect we're seeing between the left and the public. Trans people are a vanishingly small proportion of the population, compared to the people who have lost jobs when their manufacturing jobs moved overseas. Worrying about their desires (a tiny percentage of the population) and de-prioritizing the desires of a far larger group of people is insulting to the people who have lost jobs and can't find new ones. Talk about skewed priorities. Also, if you thought you were Napoleon or black (and happened not to be black), you'd be roundly laughed at and diagnosed with a mental illness, and sent to therapy, resources permitting. Similarly, you can argue that Trans people have a mental illness - they think they're something they're not. It's just that the therapy to disabuse them of the notion is more trouble than it's worth.
- woofyman 10y ago
  It was conservatives who made a big deal over bathrooms by passing laws.
  - ubertaco 10y ago
    Try to step out of your own perspective and look at it from the other side. I'm not asking you to agree with the other side, just to give it a fair shake before putting it down. Consider the viewpoint of a parent of a young (10-year-old) child. That parent sends their 10-year-old daughter into the women's restroom. If that restroom can be legally entered by any person who is willing to say out loud "I feel like I am a woman", that restroom is open to any number of adult men who prey on children to enter. Yes, this is the ever-present, sometimes-alarmist "who will think of the children" argument. But being a tired argument doesn't make it an inaccurate or illegitimate one. If there is no answer given for it, then it remains valid, if eventually tiring to hear.
    - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
      > that restroom can be legally entered by any person who is willing to say out loud "I feel like I am a woman" That's a conservative talking point, not the reality of the situation. In reality, a trans person will have to go far beyond just feeling like a woman to get away with entering a women's room; they will also have to take substantial steps towards looking like a woman.
      - jimmywanger 10y ago
        Actually, you don't. You don't even have to feel like a woman to enter a woman's room, you just have to say you identify as a woman. "Substantial steps towards looking like a woman." What does a woman look like? A woman looks like whatever she chooses to look like. Actually, she sort of looks like me after Taco Tuesdays where I have to use the restroom really badly and all the stalls in the men's bathroom are full. If you are demanding that a "real woman" make herself subservient to what society thinks a real woman should look like, or maybe even get a note from a doctor diagnosing gender dysmorphia, I would advise you to check your cis privilege. /s
        TheCoelacanth 10y ago
        Go to a state that doesn't have a bathroom bill and walk into the women's room claiming that you feel like a woman and let me know how that works out for you.
- sethrin 10y ago
  I don't know who you have been confirming your biases with, but you have arrived at a position in contradiction of fact. To the degree to which gender is not a social construct, it does not seem to be perfectly aligned with sex. I don't really have the stomach to dissect your Napoleon analogy, but instead I will simply note that you have made a false equivalence and suggest that laughing at or trivializing peoples' mental illnesses is not particularly helpful. I think that a comparison to phantom limb syndrome or alien hand syndrome would be more accurate. Most people can rely on their brain telling them accurate information about their bodies. Some of us are not so lucky. I can't begin to describe how difficult it is to have your brain constantly at war with itself. I can promise that therapy isn't going to fix that sort of brain malfunction, any more than "pray away the gay". With rare (and controversial exceptions), the majority of studies agree that HRT/GRS + therapy produces better quality of life than therapy alone. The suicide rate is pretty high for both groups though. Manufacturing jobs and my body may both make Republicans feel uncomfortable, but are not otherwise linked. You are displaying emotional reasoning, not logic. There is no reason to compare these two things, and the worrying implication of your reasoning is that any injury to a minority can be absolved if the majority can be shown to have suffered some other harm. There are a number of issues where conservatives have taken a stance against empirical reality (with its well-known liberal bias). It's tough to build a coherent worldview if it's not founded on empiricism. Trump epitomizes this problem. One hopes that the same may not be said of you.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    > There is no reason to compare these two things, and the worrying implication of your reasoning is that any injury to a minority can be absolved if the majority can be shown to have suffered some other harm. You are missing the main thrust of my argument. Transgender issues are such a vanishingly small portion of the population of course people who speak about the economy will get more traction. And people who fixate on transgender issues will rightfully be seen as fringe elements who are completely out of touch with most of the country. Complaining about not being able to use the bathroom you want to use instead of worrying about towns and communities getting hollowed out because of manufacturing jobs leaving and never coming back does not get you votes and does not portray your side of the argument in a flattering light. It'd be like complaining about grizzly bear attacks while getting drunk and driving home. One is a much more pressing concern. > There are a number of issues where conservatives have taken a stance against empirical reality (with its well-known liberal bias). Which are?

aminorex 10y ago

All bathrooms matter.

jimmywanger 10y ago

> All these bathroom laws do is make life harder for members of what is already a very marginalized group. I've had discussions with psychologists and trans people. This illustrates the disconnect we're seeing between the left and the public. Trans people are a vanishingly small proportion of the population, compared to the people who have lost jobs when their manufacturing jobs moved overseas. Worrying about their desires (a tiny percentage of the population) and de-prioritizing the desires of a far larger group of people is insulting to the people who have lost jobs and can't find new ones. Talk about skewed priorities. Also, if you thought you were Napoleon or black (and happened not to be black), you'd be roundly laughed at and diagnosed with a mental illness, and sent to therapy, resources permitting. Similarly, you can argue that Trans people have a mental illness - they think they're something they're not. It's just that the therapy to disabuse them of the notion is more trouble than it's worth.

woofyman 10y ago
It was conservatives who made a big deal over bathrooms by passing laws.
- ubertaco 10y ago
  Try to step out of your own perspective and look at it from the other side. I'm not asking you to agree with the other side, just to give it a fair shake before putting it down. Consider the viewpoint of a parent of a young (10-year-old) child. That parent sends their 10-year-old daughter into the women's restroom. If that restroom can be legally entered by any person who is willing to say out loud "I feel like I am a woman", that restroom is open to any number of adult men who prey on children to enter. Yes, this is the ever-present, sometimes-alarmist "who will think of the children" argument. But being a tired argument doesn't make it an inaccurate or illegitimate one. If there is no answer given for it, then it remains valid, if eventually tiring to hear.
  - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
    > that restroom can be legally entered by any person who is willing to say out loud "I feel like I am a woman" That's a conservative talking point, not the reality of the situation. In reality, a trans person will have to go far beyond just feeling like a woman to get away with entering a women's room; they will also have to take substantial steps towards looking like a woman.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      Actually, you don't. You don't even have to feel like a woman to enter a woman's room, you just have to say you identify as a woman. "Substantial steps towards looking like a woman." What does a woman look like? A woman looks like whatever she chooses to look like. Actually, she sort of looks like me after Taco Tuesdays where I have to use the restroom really badly and all the stalls in the men's bathroom are full. If you are demanding that a "real woman" make herself subservient to what society thinks a real woman should look like, or maybe even get a note from a doctor diagnosing gender dysmorphia, I would advise you to check your cis privilege. /s
      - TheCoelacanth 10y ago
        Go to a state that doesn't have a bathroom bill and walk into the women's room claiming that you feel like a woman and let me know how that works out for you.
sethrin 10y ago
I don't know who you have been confirming your biases with, but you have arrived at a position in contradiction of fact. To the degree to which gender is not a social construct, it does not seem to be perfectly aligned with sex. I don't really have the stomach to dissect your Napoleon analogy, but instead I will simply note that you have made a false equivalence and suggest that laughing at or trivializing peoples' mental illnesses is not particularly helpful. I think that a comparison to phantom limb syndrome or alien hand syndrome would be more accurate. Most people can rely on their brain telling them accurate information about their bodies. Some of us are not so lucky. I can't begin to describe how difficult it is to have your brain constantly at war with itself. I can promise that therapy isn't going to fix that sort of brain malfunction, any more than "pray away the gay". With rare (and controversial exceptions), the majority of studies agree that HRT/GRS + therapy produces better quality of life than therapy alone. The suicide rate is pretty high for both groups though. Manufacturing jobs and my body may both make Republicans feel uncomfortable, but are not otherwise linked. You are displaying emotional reasoning, not logic. There is no reason to compare these two things, and the worrying implication of your reasoning is that any injury to a minority can be absolved if the majority can be shown to have suffered some other harm. There are a number of issues where conservatives have taken a stance against empirical reality (with its well-known liberal bias). It's tough to build a coherent worldview if it's not founded on empiricism. Trump epitomizes this problem. One hopes that the same may not be said of you.
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  > There is no reason to compare these two things, and the worrying implication of your reasoning is that any injury to a minority can be absolved if the majority can be shown to have suffered some other harm. You are missing the main thrust of my argument. Transgender issues are such a vanishingly small portion of the population of course people who speak about the economy will get more traction. And people who fixate on transgender issues will rightfully be seen as fringe elements who are completely out of touch with most of the country. Complaining about not being able to use the bathroom you want to use instead of worrying about towns and communities getting hollowed out because of manufacturing jobs leaving and never coming back does not get you votes and does not portray your side of the argument in a flattering light. It'd be like complaining about grizzly bear attacks while getting drunk and driving home. One is a much more pressing concern. > There are a number of issues where conservatives have taken a stance against empirical reality (with its well-known liberal bias). Which are?