6 ms·

I was looking for a nice AWD hatchback. Subaru cancelled the WRX and STI version. Focus RS sadly goes with a manual only. Seems kind of silly to work so hard

by sliken 10y ago

I was looking for a nice AWD hatchback. Subaru cancelled the WRX and STI version. Focus RS sadly goes with a manual only. Seems kind of silly to work so hard on performance/acceleration and then waste time on shifting.

bcook 10y ago
Do any performance-focused vehicles use CVT? Answer: No.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/why-you-wont-see-another-manual-ferrari-20150916-gjoft8.html http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/why-you-wont-see-another-... (Sept 2015) "Ferrari has emphatically ruled out offering a manual gearbox in its next generation of vehicles, for one simple reason: performance. Speaking at the Frankfurt motor show this week, stakeholders at Ferrari said the manual transmission had become obsolete in a performance sense because modern dual-clutch transmissions were much faster and effective in their shifts." "We never say no, but today we say no," a spokesman said. "We are very convinced with our strategy about the automatic gearbox, it's the fastest gearbox in the market and this is a distinctive component for us. Right now we are not thinking about a manual because the performance is [less]." Not a CVT, but a manual has no benefit. Either go CVT for efficiency or geared automatic for performance. EDIT: astrodust: Let not split hairs; Formula 1 allowed the introduction of CVTs in 1993 and then banned them because they were too good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto http://jalopnik.com/http-youtu-be-x3upbkxmrto-one-that-goes-unloved-a-lot-1464507675 http://jalopnik.com/http-youtu-be-x3upbkxmrto-one-that-goes-...
  - astrodust 10y ago
    That's a sequential shifter, which is a different beast than an automatic. They've had paddle-driven shifting on their cars for over a decade now which just triggers gear shifts manually. It's not an automatic transmission in the classic sense, there are still gears. Classic automatic transmission systems use a fluid mechanism to transmit power which is where a lot of the power loss comes from.
    - sliken 10y ago
      paddle driven cars may not be an automatic transmission in the classic sense. Nor is it a manual transmission in the classic sense. Maybe clutchless is a better term
      - schwap 10y ago
        It's hard to define 'paddle driven' cars, since of course any automatic transmission car could have paddles that allow manual shifting. I assume you're talking about the paddle-shifted transmissions found Ferraris, Lamborghinis, BMWs etc. in the recent past. These in fact are the opposite of 'clutchless'. They were basically manual transmissions electronically controlled and with the clutch and shifting actuated by hydraulics. Nowadays they use some variety of dual-clutch transmission.
        astrodust 10y ago
        Sad to see someone getting beat up on for using the correct term. "Clutchless" does not refer to a missing clutch internally, but the lack of an operable clutch pedal.
  - nerthus 10y ago
    They can go that way, because the technology is far enough. A traditional automatic is not suitable for sporty driving. Not only because it may choose the wrong gear at the wrong time. In racing, the balance of the car is highly important. Making an uncontrolled shift within a corner, can spin off the car because of the associated weight shift. You counter that in traditional transmissions with double clutching and heal-and-toe, where you get the rev in the transmission about right, to guarantie a smooth shift and a stable car. Ferrari and the like managed through timed automated gas bursts and other technologies to conquer the effect in automatic transmissions.
- johnwards 10y ago
  No, they use dual clutches.
  - sliken 10y ago
    They, being the computer, not the driver.
  - sliken 10y ago
    Subaru WRX is not a dual clutch, it's an (optional) CVT.
- topspin 10y ago
  A 2017 Subaru WRX with a CVT and 268hp will deliver 5.9s 0-60. Certainly not a supercar but it fits the definition of 'performance-focused' for most people. It is odd to see in action; accelerating from a stop using launch control causes the car to not simulate gear shifts for maximum performance; the engine quickly climbs to about 6700 and just hangs there while the speed increases. No shifting drama at all. Almost boring.
- scentedmeat 10y ago
  Well, it was banned in F1 over a decade ago
TomMarius 10y ago
You can get better 0 to 60 time with manual.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Automatics are faster. Cammisa, Jason. "Here's what's really killing the manual transmission." Road & Track. March 10, 2014. (April 10, 2015) http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a6308/whats-really-killing-the-manual-transmisson/ http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a6308/whats-really-k... Lachnit, Carroll. "Five Myths About Stick Shifts: Manual vs Automatic Transmissions." Edmunds. Sept. 26, 2013. (April 10, 2015) http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-shifts.html http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-s...
  - bitwize 10y ago
    If you're not driving a stick, eating paleo, and listening to your music on vinyl with a 100% analog mastering process, then you're doing it wrong.
    - dagw 10y ago
      OK, but can stop doing cross-fit?
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.
- henrikschroder 10y ago
  It should be completely obvious that machines can be made to do things quicker, better, and more reliably than humans.
  - TomMarius 10y ago
    So why are Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Skoda, Volkswagen and such reporting slower zero to sixty times on automatic transmissions?
astrodust 10y ago
A shifter isn't just for acceleration. It's also for picking which gear you want to be in when anticipating something you're trying to do. When racing you'll know exactly what gear to be in for what section of each corner. You'll have a plan going into the corner, coming out of the corner, and it'll be complicated enough that there's no way an automatic can keep up. Unless you're going for quarter mile times, you'll eventually have to down-shift and performance there will be key.
- sliken 10y ago
  Automatics are the same. Sporty cars usually have flappy paddles to control the automatic. So you can pick your gear for the next corner if you want. All the while enjoying better acceleration, faster shifts, and better mpg. Can't push start the car when the battery dies though.
  - jaggederest 10y ago
    Yeah, unless you've tried them both extensively, you can't compare them that way. The feedback provided by the clutch pedal is integral to the process of driving a manual car - it's not just 'engage' or 'disengage', it's a fully analog feedback mechanism about the state of the drivetrain linkage. Especially the paddle shifters are like trying to tie a fly fishing lure while wearing welding gloves. No connection to the machine or feedback from the engine, no ability to change the engine state independent of the state of the drivetrain. I miss manual transmissions every time I drive, and I drive a car with a really, really good paddle shift dual clutch transmission.
  - astrodust 10y ago
    High-end sports cars with paddles use an automatically triggered manual transmission, it's a sequential shifter, not a classic automatic transmission. There used to be a pretty wide divide between "manual" and "automatic", but now that gap has narrowed and the terminology overlaps. This is an example of a what's inside a paddle driven engine: http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-si-full-sequential-gearbox.html http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-si-full-sequentia... It's "clutchless manual", not automatic.

by sliken 10y ago

bcook 10y ago

Do any performance-focused vehicles use CVT? Answer: No.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/why-you-wont-see-another-manual-ferrari-20150916-gjoft8.html http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/why-you-wont-see-another-... (Sept 2015) "Ferrari has emphatically ruled out offering a manual gearbox in its next generation of vehicles, for one simple reason: performance. Speaking at the Frankfurt motor show this week, stakeholders at Ferrari said the manual transmission had become obsolete in a performance sense because modern dual-clutch transmissions were much faster and effective in their shifts." "We never say no, but today we say no," a spokesman said. "We are very convinced with our strategy about the automatic gearbox, it's the fastest gearbox in the market and this is a distinctive component for us. Right now we are not thinking about a manual because the performance is [less]." Not a CVT, but a manual has no benefit. Either go CVT for efficiency or geared automatic for performance. EDIT: astrodust: Let not split hairs; Formula 1 allowed the introduction of CVTs in 1993 and then banned them because they were too good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto http://jalopnik.com/http-youtu-be-x3upbkxmrto-one-that-goes-unloved-a-lot-1464507675 http://jalopnik.com/http-youtu-be-x3upbkxmrto-one-that-goes-...
- astrodust 10y ago
  That's a sequential shifter, which is a different beast than an automatic. They've had paddle-driven shifting on their cars for over a decade now which just triggers gear shifts manually. It's not an automatic transmission in the classic sense, there are still gears. Classic automatic transmission systems use a fluid mechanism to transmit power which is where a lot of the power loss comes from.
  - sliken 10y ago
    paddle driven cars may not be an automatic transmission in the classic sense. Nor is it a manual transmission in the classic sense. Maybe clutchless is a better term
    - schwap 10y ago
      It's hard to define 'paddle driven' cars, since of course any automatic transmission car could have paddles that allow manual shifting. I assume you're talking about the paddle-shifted transmissions found Ferraris, Lamborghinis, BMWs etc. in the recent past. These in fact are the opposite of 'clutchless'. They were basically manual transmissions electronically controlled and with the clutch and shifting actuated by hydraulics. Nowadays they use some variety of dual-clutch transmission.
      - astrodust 10y ago
        Sad to see someone getting beat up on for using the correct term. "Clutchless" does not refer to a missing clutch internally, but the lack of an operable clutch pedal.
- nerthus 10y ago
  They can go that way, because the technology is far enough. A traditional automatic is not suitable for sporty driving. Not only because it may choose the wrong gear at the wrong time. In racing, the balance of the car is highly important. Making an uncontrolled shift within a corner, can spin off the car because of the associated weight shift. You counter that in traditional transmissions with double clutching and heal-and-toe, where you get the rev in the transmission about right, to guarantie a smooth shift and a stable car. Ferrari and the like managed through timed automated gas bursts and other technologies to conquer the effect in automatic transmissions.
johnwards 10y ago
No, they use dual clutches.
- sliken 10y ago
  They, being the computer, not the driver.
- sliken 10y ago
  Subaru WRX is not a dual clutch, it's an (optional) CVT.
topspin 10y ago
A 2017 Subaru WRX with a CVT and 268hp will deliver 5.9s 0-60. Certainly not a supercar but it fits the definition of 'performance-focused' for most people. It is odd to see in action; accelerating from a stop using launch control causes the car to not simulate gear shifts for maximum performance; the engine quickly climbs to about 6700 and just hangs there while the speed increases. No shifting drama at all. Almost boring.
scentedmeat 10y ago
Well, it was banned in F1 over a decade ago

TomMarius 10y ago

You can get better 0 to 60 time with manual.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
Automatics are faster. Cammisa, Jason. "Here's what's really killing the manual transmission." Road & Track. March 10, 2014. (April 10, 2015) http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a6308/whats-really-killing-the-manual-transmisson/ http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a6308/whats-really-k... Lachnit, Carroll. "Five Myths About Stick Shifts: Manual vs Automatic Transmissions." Edmunds. Sept. 26, 2013. (April 10, 2015) http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-shifts.html http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-s...
- bitwize 10y ago
  If you're not driving a stick, eating paleo, and listening to your music on vinyl with a 100% analog mastering process, then you're doing it wrong.
  - dagw 10y ago
    OK, but can stop doing cross-fit?
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not.
henrikschroder 10y ago
It should be completely obvious that machines can be made to do things quicker, better, and more reliably than humans.
- TomMarius 10y ago
  So why are Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Skoda, Volkswagen and such reporting slower zero to sixty times on automatic transmissions?

astrodust 10y ago

A shifter isn't just for acceleration. It's also for picking which gear you want to be in when anticipating something you're trying to do. When racing you'll know exactly what gear to be in for what section of each corner. You'll have a plan going into the corner, coming out of the corner, and it'll be complicated enough that there's no way an automatic can keep up. Unless you're going for quarter mile times, you'll eventually have to down-shift and performance there will be key.

sliken 10y ago
Automatics are the same. Sporty cars usually have flappy paddles to control the automatic. So you can pick your gear for the next corner if you want. All the while enjoying better acceleration, faster shifts, and better mpg. Can't push start the car when the battery dies though.
- jaggederest 10y ago
  Yeah, unless you've tried them both extensively, you can't compare them that way. The feedback provided by the clutch pedal is integral to the process of driving a manual car - it's not just 'engage' or 'disengage', it's a fully analog feedback mechanism about the state of the drivetrain linkage. Especially the paddle shifters are like trying to tie a fly fishing lure while wearing welding gloves. No connection to the machine or feedback from the engine, no ability to change the engine state independent of the state of the drivetrain. I miss manual transmissions every time I drive, and I drive a car with a really, really good paddle shift dual clutch transmission.
- astrodust 10y ago
  High-end sports cars with paddles use an automatically triggered manual transmission, it's a sequential shifter, not a classic automatic transmission. There used to be a pretty wide divide between "manual" and "automatic", but now that gap has narrowed and the terminology overlaps. This is an example of a what's inside a paddle driven engine: http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-si-full-sequential-gearbox.html http://eng.kaps-transmissions.com/products-si-full-sequentia... It's "clutchless manual", not automatic.