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The major advantage of "Desktop Linux" (that I've been using happily for quite a few years now) is that it's utterly unlike Mac OS X or Windows. We use Linux no

by k-zed 16y ago

The major advantage of "Desktop Linux" (that I've been using happily for quite a few years now) is that it's utterly unlike Mac OS X or Windows. We use Linux not because it's free, but because it's more comfortable, the UI is better and friendlier, and developing programs for it is a whole hell of a lot easier. Everything Gnome, Ubuntu and this sort of people do work against these advantages. We use Linux because of its differences - these differences to other systems need to be accentuated (zsh, the suckless project, etc), not fought against (Ubuntu, network-manager, HAL, etc). By every step these people take, Linux gets more difficult to develop for and less comfortable to use. This needs to stop.

bad_user 16y ago
> We use Linux because of its differences I don't know who you speak for, but it's not about me ... I use Linux because it's cheap and I'm in control. Other than that I love having aptitude and a good repository, but every once in a while I really wish there was a click-to-install standard and I also really wish I wouldn't burn my weekend over wireless issues. > developing programs for it is a whole hell of a lot easier You're not speaking about desktop applications / games. That's hell-like compared to the alternatives, being partly the reason why companies like Adobe aren't investing in it ... I've worked there and I know the arguments that are flying back and forth. > By every step these people take, Linux gets more difficult to develop for and less comfortable to use. This needs to stop. People should and will work on whatever they want, and all "wasted effort" arguments are bullshit. If you think there are better paradigms that should be explored, then jump in and show the world how right you are. Talk is cheap.
- k-zed 16y ago
  > You're not speaking about desktop applications / games Those apps aren't hard to develop because libraries or the environment or whatever; they're hard to develop because their developers want them to be closed, so recompilation and putting them into the real package management system is impossible. Starting with such a handicap makes things complicated :) > If you think there are better paradigms that should be explored, then jump in and show the world how right you are The better paradigms have been known and used for 20 years (such as the Unix paradigm of connecting multiple programs, the CLI, and so on). That it doesn't appeal to some end users is not our problem. (also username post combo, but just kidding :)
  - bad_user 16y ago
    > Those apps aren't hard to develop because libraries or the environment or whatever They are hard to develop because it's difficult choosing libraries, the environment, whatever, and your choice for today may be deprecated in 6 months. Of course, with the proper abstractions you can painlessly rewrite your app to target the newest toys. But there are always costs involved ... sure you could rewrite it in a couple of weeks, but quality assurance (if you're a professional that doesn't releases pieces of shit) takes as long as it did for the original target. > they're hard to develop because their developers want them to be closed Yeah well, it's their choice, and accommodating applications that aren't open-source should be a requirement of any OS because, you know, the majority of desktop apps in production are closed and that ain't changing because it's a valid business model. > Starting with such a handicap makes things complicated :) It's only a handicap on Linux. The other platforms, including Solaris, have been doing just fine. Which makes me wonder about which part is handicapped.
  - coffeeaddicted 16y ago
    And getting new versions of your software out by trying to get X distributors to include your newest version in their repositories (which are completely outside of your control and each with it's own set of rules) is less complicated than just putting new stuff up on your own website? I don't think so. There is one advantage for users certainly - it's easier to find versions of software which are officially sanctioned by their distributor, although it might be outdated by months. Which does often not matter much for server-software, but for desktop software it's something which users don't really accept. I think we can discuss if this central-control-by-distros model of software distribution has more advantages or disadvantages, but it's not all shiny throughout. As example when stuff go really wrong with that model - maybe you heard of the troubles with Debian, J.Schilling and the cdrtools. I didn't until I noticed I could no longer burn CD's(!) with k3b and had to spend a few hours on figuring out how to fix this (you have to get the Schilling versions of the tools - the official Debian-version simply does not work in some cases and that is known now for a long long time). So there is a well-working combination of k3b+cdrtools which fails to pass the distributor rules (which is certainly fine) and now the authors can't really get the working combination (of 2 open source packages!) in an easy way out to the users.
blub 16y ago
Not me. I use Linux (among other OSes) because it's Open and Free, and I think that it's important to have an alternative to proprietary systems. I don't consider it to have a better UI or to be easier to develop for and I feel more comfortable with Windows.
- k-zed 16y ago
  Then you need to try the following things: - vim or emacs - tmux or screen - tiling window managers - zsh Each of these things result in a massive usability increase.
- nailer 16y ago
  Lowercase f free. He's saying most people use Linux not because it's $0.00, which includes your reason, that it's liberated.
xtho 16y ago
It's funny you're saying that after all the years of work that went into making traditional window managers more Windows/MacOSX like.

by k-zed 16y ago

bad_user 16y ago

> We use Linux because of its differences I don't know who you speak for, but it's not about me ... I use Linux because it's cheap and I'm in control. Other than that I love having aptitude and a good repository, but every once in a while I really wish there was a click-to-install standard and I also really wish I wouldn't burn my weekend over wireless issues. > developing programs for it is a whole hell of a lot easier You're not speaking about desktop applications / games. That's hell-like compared to the alternatives, being partly the reason why companies like Adobe aren't investing in it ... I've worked there and I know the arguments that are flying back and forth. > By every step these people take, Linux gets more difficult to develop for and less comfortable to use. This needs to stop. People should and will work on whatever they want, and all "wasted effort" arguments are bullshit. If you think there are better paradigms that should be explored, then jump in and show the world how right you are. Talk is cheap.

k-zed 16y ago
> You're not speaking about desktop applications / games Those apps aren't hard to develop because libraries or the environment or whatever; they're hard to develop because their developers want them to be closed, so recompilation and putting them into the real package management system is impossible. Starting with such a handicap makes things complicated :) > If you think there are better paradigms that should be explored, then jump in and show the world how right you are The better paradigms have been known and used for 20 years (such as the Unix paradigm of connecting multiple programs, the CLI, and so on). That it doesn't appeal to some end users is not our problem. (also username post combo, but just kidding :)
- bad_user 16y ago
  > Those apps aren't hard to develop because libraries or the environment or whatever They are hard to develop because it's difficult choosing libraries, the environment, whatever, and your choice for today may be deprecated in 6 months. Of course, with the proper abstractions you can painlessly rewrite your app to target the newest toys. But there are always costs involved ... sure you could rewrite it in a couple of weeks, but quality assurance (if you're a professional that doesn't releases pieces of shit) takes as long as it did for the original target. > they're hard to develop because their developers want them to be closed Yeah well, it's their choice, and accommodating applications that aren't open-source should be a requirement of any OS because, you know, the majority of desktop apps in production are closed and that ain't changing because it's a valid business model. > Starting with such a handicap makes things complicated :) It's only a handicap on Linux. The other platforms, including Solaris, have been doing just fine. Which makes me wonder about which part is handicapped.
- coffeeaddicted 16y ago
  And getting new versions of your software out by trying to get X distributors to include your newest version in their repositories (which are completely outside of your control and each with it's own set of rules) is less complicated than just putting new stuff up on your own website? I don't think so. There is one advantage for users certainly - it's easier to find versions of software which are officially sanctioned by their distributor, although it might be outdated by months. Which does often not matter much for server-software, but for desktop software it's something which users don't really accept. I think we can discuss if this central-control-by-distros model of software distribution has more advantages or disadvantages, but it's not all shiny throughout. As example when stuff go really wrong with that model - maybe you heard of the troubles with Debian, J.Schilling and the cdrtools. I didn't until I noticed I could no longer burn CD's(!) with k3b and had to spend a few hours on figuring out how to fix this (you have to get the Schilling versions of the tools - the official Debian-version simply does not work in some cases and that is known now for a long long time). So there is a well-working combination of k3b+cdrtools which fails to pass the distributor rules (which is certainly fine) and now the authors can't really get the working combination (of 2 open source packages!) in an easy way out to the users.

blub 16y ago

Not me. I use Linux (among other OSes) because it's Open and Free, and I think that it's important to have an alternative to proprietary systems. I don't consider it to have a better UI or to be easier to develop for and I feel more comfortable with Windows.

k-zed 16y ago
Then you need to try the following things: - vim or emacs - tmux or screen - tiling window managers - zsh Each of these things result in a massive usability increase.
nailer 16y ago
Lowercase f free. He's saying most people use Linux not because it's $0.00, which includes your reason, that it's liberated.

xtho 16y ago

It's funny you're saying that after all the years of work that went into making traditional window managers more Windows/MacOSX like.