5 ms·

Which is exactly why we need to fix this problem. Consumer products don't have good security at all and it's making the world a worse place

by m3rc 10y ago

sametmax 10y ago
The strange thing is that I have less people around me with virus problems, stolen card problems, scam problems, etc than 10 years ago. Despite the fact that we deem those devices less secure. Something is off.
- gambiting 10y ago
  I guess a lot of people have moved to platforms which are essentially virus-proof, like the iPad. I have several members of my family who used windows computers before, now they use iPads exclusively for all their work and pleasure. Previously any of them would open anything that they got in an email, and I guess they still do - it's just that with some devices, it's not an issue. A zipped up virus won't do any harm on an iPad, and probably most Android devices are secure from that too. So while I think that windows devices are as easy to infiltrate as ever, a lot of people have simply stopped using them, and replaced them with - coincidentally, not intentionally - more secure platforms.
  - moyta 10y ago
    Pretty much this, security isn't improving, its just those infected zip & doc files usually aren't targeted at Android or iOS.
    - lloeki 10y ago
      From trivial to apply app and OS updates to code signing and disabled sideloading, the mobile platforms (either one) make it really much harder to fall prey than on desktop OSes, by design. Malware authors have to hit a homerun on 0-days to even begin to get a foothold on the mobile OSes† these days. † on properly updated devices such as the Apple ones as well as Nexus+Pixel. Probably this is where some form of vertical integration starts to really matter in practice.
- lucian1900 10y ago
  Security on desktop OSes is still much worse, with even sandboxing being fairly rare.
  - simonh 10y ago
    Oh come on. The virus situation on Windows XP was appalling. The system was wide open. It's the primary reason I mainly switched to the Mac in 2006. Sane security was the one truly good thing that's come out of the post-XP era of MS operating systems.
    - lucian1900 10y ago
      Desktop OSes still run every app as the user, which gives them access to everything useful by default. Mobile OSes differ in this respect since they sandbox by default.
- saint_fiasco 10y ago
  Maybe criminals are more subtle now. For example most people who own devices that are part of the Mirai botnet are not aware of it.
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    I think you're right. Unless you're running crypto malware there's hardly any reason to let your victim know you've infected them. In fact it's best if they never notice anything is amiss.
- ufmace 10y ago
  It's a common pattern with a lot of "awareness" and media problems. There's a big problem with something, people start noticing it and "raising awareness" of it and publishing articles, books, etc on it. Now several things happen at the same time - people who are responsible for the systems that have the problem start addressing it and it gradually starts getting better in response to the publicity and complaints, but at the same time, the community of people finding and drawing attention to the class of problems gets bigger and develops more infrastructure and institutional culture. Groups get created and funded, people start full-time careers with those groups, regular magazines and websites get published and develop their own staffs, etc. Usually, the underlying issue is complex enough that it takes years or decades to make the problem like 95% better. But the community around the issue has become entrenched, and won't go away just because the problem is basically solved. There's plenty of excuses at hand to justify the continued existence of the group - the problem is never 100% gone, so there's always something new to address, and they can always say that we have to be on guard for the problem coming back. But the effect is the same - the noise gets louder as the signal gets weaker. If you're paying attention, you can see this pattern play out for all sorts of things. In this case, we have both made the computers and browsers a lot more secure, and a lot of consumer-level computing activity has, for a bunch of reasons of which security is certainly one, moved to drastically more locked-down devices. Good luck building a botnet of iPads and Android phones. Many of the hacks that get the most publicity are super-complex one-offs that are in theory highly dangerous, but in practice are so valuable that they would only ever be used by state-level actors against handpicked national security targets, because you have to spend millions to find them, and they will become worthless about a week after the appropriate companies become aware of them.
djsumdog 10y ago
It's more complicated than that. If Google just produced a standard version of Android with a standard kernel version that all vendors would write for, refreshing and wiping phones would be as easy as Windows/Linux laptops. I wrote a post on this a while back: http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/ http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/ Since then, I've become more and more frustrated with other ARM boards. Android fragmentation is directly related to ARM fragments and it's a huge mess. Things like device trees help, but ARM is missing the standardized architecture that Intel, Power, et. al. have.
- kuschku 10y ago
  > If Google just produced a standard version of Android with a standard kernel version that all vendors would write for Then you wouldn't get all location data, call logs, and application usage data sent to China, you'd get them sent to the US, via Google, for better user experience and more targeted ads. The result would be literally the same.
  - mordocai 10y ago
    If you are in the US, at least your data isn't being sent to another country. Outside the US, I think your comment stands on its own.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Indeed I am outside the US, and I'm surprised the comment got that many downvotes. EDIT: At the time, it was at -3
- untoreh 10y ago
  are you sure the problem is arm? How can google use a standard kernel version? I mean it is quite standard and only changes between major releases doesn't it? The thing is that linux being monolithic requires all the drivers baked in, which is fine like it is fine the whole flashing ROMs stuff, or maybe it was a few years a go when phones where phones and not pocket pcs so they benefited from the whole packaging. Magenta by google seems to use userspace drivers, so if that is ever gonna get used in phones it might be a solution for a more standard kernel

Which is exactly why we need to fix this problem. Consumer products don't have good security at all and it's making the world a worse place

by m3rc 10y ago

Which is exactly why we need to fix this problem. Consumer products don't have good security at all and it's making the world a worse place

sametmax 10y ago

The strange thing is that I have less people around me with virus problems, stolen card problems, scam problems, etc than 10 years ago. Despite the fact that we deem those devices less secure. Something is off.

gambiting 10y ago
I guess a lot of people have moved to platforms which are essentially virus-proof, like the iPad. I have several members of my family who used windows computers before, now they use iPads exclusively for all their work and pleasure. Previously any of them would open anything that they got in an email, and I guess they still do - it's just that with some devices, it's not an issue. A zipped up virus won't do any harm on an iPad, and probably most Android devices are secure from that too. So while I think that windows devices are as easy to infiltrate as ever, a lot of people have simply stopped using them, and replaced them with - coincidentally, not intentionally - more secure platforms.
- moyta 10y ago
  Pretty much this, security isn't improving, its just those infected zip & doc files usually aren't targeted at Android or iOS.
  - lloeki 10y ago
    From trivial to apply app and OS updates to code signing and disabled sideloading, the mobile platforms (either one) make it really much harder to fall prey than on desktop OSes, by design. Malware authors have to hit a homerun on 0-days to even begin to get a foothold on the mobile OSes† these days. † on properly updated devices such as the Apple ones as well as Nexus+Pixel. Probably this is where some form of vertical integration starts to really matter in practice.
lucian1900 10y ago
Security on desktop OSes is still much worse, with even sandboxing being fairly rare.
- simonh 10y ago
  Oh come on. The virus situation on Windows XP was appalling. The system was wide open. It's the primary reason I mainly switched to the Mac in 2006. Sane security was the one truly good thing that's come out of the post-XP era of MS operating systems.
  - lucian1900 10y ago
    Desktop OSes still run every app as the user, which gives them access to everything useful by default. Mobile OSes differ in this respect since they sandbox by default.
saint_fiasco 10y ago
Maybe criminals are more subtle now. For example most people who own devices that are part of the Mirai botnet are not aware of it.
- nkrisc 10y ago
  I think you're right. Unless you're running crypto malware there's hardly any reason to let your victim know you've infected them. In fact it's best if they never notice anything is amiss.
ufmace 10y ago
It's a common pattern with a lot of "awareness" and media problems. There's a big problem with something, people start noticing it and "raising awareness" of it and publishing articles, books, etc on it. Now several things happen at the same time - people who are responsible for the systems that have the problem start addressing it and it gradually starts getting better in response to the publicity and complaints, but at the same time, the community of people finding and drawing attention to the class of problems gets bigger and develops more infrastructure and institutional culture. Groups get created and funded, people start full-time careers with those groups, regular magazines and websites get published and develop their own staffs, etc. Usually, the underlying issue is complex enough that it takes years or decades to make the problem like 95% better. But the community around the issue has become entrenched, and won't go away just because the problem is basically solved. There's plenty of excuses at hand to justify the continued existence of the group - the problem is never 100% gone, so there's always something new to address, and they can always say that we have to be on guard for the problem coming back. But the effect is the same - the noise gets louder as the signal gets weaker. If you're paying attention, you can see this pattern play out for all sorts of things. In this case, we have both made the computers and browsers a lot more secure, and a lot of consumer-level computing activity has, for a bunch of reasons of which security is certainly one, moved to drastically more locked-down devices. Good luck building a botnet of iPads and Android phones. Many of the hacks that get the most publicity are super-complex one-offs that are in theory highly dangerous, but in practice are so valuable that they would only ever be used by state-level actors against handpicked national security targets, because you have to spend millions to find them, and they will become worthless about a week after the appropriate companies become aware of them.

djsumdog 10y ago

It's more complicated than that. If Google just produced a standard version of Android with a standard kernel version that all vendors would write for, refreshing and wiping phones would be as easy as Windows/Linux laptops. I wrote a post on this a while back: http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/ http://penguindreams.org/blog/android-fragmentation/ Since then, I've become more and more frustrated with other ARM boards. Android fragmentation is directly related to ARM fragments and it's a huge mess. Things like device trees help, but ARM is missing the standardized architecture that Intel, Power, et. al. have.

kuschku 10y ago
> If Google just produced a standard version of Android with a standard kernel version that all vendors would write for Then you wouldn't get all location data, call logs, and application usage data sent to China, you'd get them sent to the US, via Google, for better user experience and more targeted ads. The result would be literally the same.
- mordocai 10y ago
  If you are in the US, at least your data isn't being sent to another country. Outside the US, I think your comment stands on its own.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Indeed I am outside the US, and I'm surprised the comment got that many downvotes. EDIT: At the time, it was at -3
untoreh 10y ago
are you sure the problem is arm? How can google use a standard kernel version? I mean it is quite standard and only changes between major releases doesn't it? The thing is that linux being monolithic requires all the drivers baked in, which is fine like it is fine the whole flashing ROMs stuff, or maybe it was a few years a go when phones where phones and not pocket pcs so they benefited from the whole packaging. Magenta by google seems to use userspace drivers, so if that is ever gonna get used in phones it might be a solution for a more standard kernel