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While I'm in complete agreement with you (everyone should be responsible for protecting and ensuring the integrity of their data), it seems a little unreasonabl

by indiv0 10y ago

While I'm in complete agreement with you (everyone should be responsible for protecting and ensuring the integrity of their data), it seems a little unreasonable to expect the average gmail user to purchase a domain name, link it to an email provider, (optionally) migrate their emails, etc. Same goes for YouTube videos. Content creators typically maintain copies of their work, but casual youtubers don't.

jdietrich 10y ago
I don't think it is unreasonable. I think we've fallen into a culture of low expectations regarding the ability of "normal users". Many people will (perfectly legitimately) choose convenience over quality or reliability, but I think we should be pushing users to engage more seriously with the tools that they use. We can certainly do more as developers to make things easier, but I think we have a tendency to pander to an imaginary "AOL granny". We often present oversimplified advice, because we expect too little of users. To pick a random example, I think we're too eager to say "use Dropbox" rather than "use Dropbox, but buy yourself a NAS too because X, Y and Z". I think that there's a substantial latent desire among ordinary users to have more control over their technological lives. People are increasingly worried about the power of big tech companies, but they don't know what to do. We aren't doing a good enough job of informing users; those big companies have an obvious incentive to keep users uninformed. We're not communicating the risks and benefits well enough, we're not providing clear explanations of the alternatives to the Big Five. In the process of writing this comment, I've had several startup ideas. I hope that the people reading this are having ideas of their own. I think that there are substantial opportunities to start returning control to users.
- xyzzy123 10y ago
  For a whole variety of reasons, you need know what you're doing to properly host your own email now. From the risk of domain name takeover, to hosting provider takeover, to modern spam requirements (ip reputation, dkim, spf, dmarc), to just plain sysadmin ability and ideally run an HA system. Agree that there are probably some startup opportunities, but the the reality is that you'll just be transferring the user's trust from AmaGooFaceSoft to you. You might be more trustworthy... or you might go out of business. EDIT: To be fair, I'm probably missing a whole bunch of creative solutions that give the user control without requiring them to run a service.
  - jdietrich 10y ago
    There are a whole spectrum of options between "running a mail server in your basement" and "having to reprint your business cards if your Google account is suspended". We can make big steps towards trustworthiness and control in SaaS, it's just often orthogonal to profitability. Lock-in is the obvious example. Lots of vendors expend huge efforts to simplify data ingress, but create arbitrary obstacles to data egress. We worry about SaaS providers going bust because we're inured to the idea that getting your data back is really difficult. The interests of the user do not align with the interests of the vendor. Predatory practices are so normal that we've half-forgotten that they're predatory.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Quite a few you're missing indeed. Many ISPs give out a domain name and email service for free with internet contracts — you can set it to redirect to gmail until you need it, then just switch it over. Tada, problem solved.
    - ucaetano 10y ago
      Until your ISP closes your account for whatever reason.
      - kuschku 10y ago
        That’s why you use a trustworthy ISP. My current ISP, for example, is actually a local company providing datacenter colocation and consulting services to the state’s government and local and national companies, but they also run a small ISP as side business.
        ucaetano 10y ago
        >they also run a small ISP as side business Which means their small ISP business is something they wouldn't mind so much getting rid of, along with your account. The point is, you'll always depend on someone else. Your data will always flow through someone else's network. The cloud is someone's computer, and the internet is someone's cable.
elcct 10y ago
I think someone who figures out an easy way to do it will get some nice money coming in :) Technology is already there, just need an easy way to order a domain and a server configured to use that domain. You control 100% of the data.

by indiv0 10y ago

jdietrich 10y ago

I don't think it is unreasonable. I think we've fallen into a culture of low expectations regarding the ability of "normal users". Many people will (perfectly legitimately) choose convenience over quality or reliability, but I think we should be pushing users to engage more seriously with the tools that they use. We can certainly do more as developers to make things easier, but I think we have a tendency to pander to an imaginary "AOL granny". We often present oversimplified advice, because we expect too little of users. To pick a random example, I think we're too eager to say "use Dropbox" rather than "use Dropbox, but buy yourself a NAS too because X, Y and Z". I think that there's a substantial latent desire among ordinary users to have more control over their technological lives. People are increasingly worried about the power of big tech companies, but they don't know what to do. We aren't doing a good enough job of informing users; those big companies have an obvious incentive to keep users uninformed. We're not communicating the risks and benefits well enough, we're not providing clear explanations of the alternatives to the Big Five. In the process of writing this comment, I've had several startup ideas. I hope that the people reading this are having ideas of their own. I think that there are substantial opportunities to start returning control to users.

xyzzy123 10y ago
For a whole variety of reasons, you need know what you're doing to properly host your own email now. From the risk of domain name takeover, to hosting provider takeover, to modern spam requirements (ip reputation, dkim, spf, dmarc), to just plain sysadmin ability and ideally run an HA system. Agree that there are probably some startup opportunities, but the the reality is that you'll just be transferring the user's trust from AmaGooFaceSoft to you. You might be more trustworthy... or you might go out of business. EDIT: To be fair, I'm probably missing a whole bunch of creative solutions that give the user control without requiring them to run a service.
- jdietrich 10y ago
  There are a whole spectrum of options between "running a mail server in your basement" and "having to reprint your business cards if your Google account is suspended". We can make big steps towards trustworthiness and control in SaaS, it's just often orthogonal to profitability. Lock-in is the obvious example. Lots of vendors expend huge efforts to simplify data ingress, but create arbitrary obstacles to data egress. We worry about SaaS providers going bust because we're inured to the idea that getting your data back is really difficult. The interests of the user do not align with the interests of the vendor. Predatory practices are so normal that we've half-forgotten that they're predatory.
- kuschku 10y ago
  Quite a few you're missing indeed. Many ISPs give out a domain name and email service for free with internet contracts — you can set it to redirect to gmail until you need it, then just switch it over. Tada, problem solved.
  - ucaetano 10y ago
    Until your ISP closes your account for whatever reason.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      That’s why you use a trustworthy ISP. My current ISP, for example, is actually a local company providing datacenter colocation and consulting services to the state’s government and local and national companies, but they also run a small ISP as side business.
      - ucaetano 10y ago
        >they also run a small ISP as side business Which means their small ISP business is something they wouldn't mind so much getting rid of, along with your account. The point is, you'll always depend on someone else. Your data will always flow through someone else's network. The cloud is someone's computer, and the internet is someone's cable.

elcct 10y ago

I think someone who figures out an easy way to do it will get some nice money coming in :) Technology is already there, just need an easy way to order a domain and a server configured to use that domain. You control 100% of the data.