4 ms·

>“the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is

by endgame 10y ago

>“the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is completely incompatible with Apple.

Razengan 10y ago
Automation in macOS appears to be remaining as strong as ever. What makes you think it has suffered? In fact, I believe macOS gives you more control than Windows.
- tedmiston 10y ago
  As strong as ever? Script Editor is practically abandoned... The guide about providing scripting definitions (making your program accessible via AppleScript) was last updated in 2008. [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ScriptableCocoaApplications/RevisionHistory.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002164-CH2-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Co...
  - Razengan 10y ago
    It received an entire new language, and it still works, how is it abandoned? The state and currency of Apple's documentation is a different matter altogether. It's seriously outdated in a lot of places and in a need of a major overhaul.
    - tedmiston 10y ago
      The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. I have a strong premonition that JavaScript was added to potentially discontinue AppleScript. The revision history of the AppleScript docs is the third reason.
      - Razengan 10y ago
        > The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. In what ways does it need changing? What improvements do you have in mind? I can only think of autocomplete, but the object browser/dictionary helps in its stead.
        tedmiston 10y ago
        I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling me, but without being pedantic, it's a learning environment that lacks standard IDE features, including such basic things as line numbers and a context click for go to function definition. As far as I'm aware there is no third party package ecosystem for extending its limitations either.
        hhas01 10y ago
        They'd need to rewrite the AppleScript compiler and interpreter to support all that. It's pretty much a non-starter for building full modern tooling on top. There just aren't the hooks in either AppleScript or the OSA component API (which is the middleware that apps like Script Editor have to call through to interact with AS itself) to drop those in. And why would Apple invest a ton of capital doing that when there aren't any users for it anyway! ... Re. the missing library ecosystem in particular: AS didn't even have a built-in module loader until 10.9! And having landed that, the AS team didn't even bother to provide any standard libraries to go with it! How do they expect a full third-party ecosystem to spring up all around it overnight when they don't even bother to show AS users what the point of the damn thing is? See also: openradar.appspot.com/28465563, which is my third (and absolutely final) attempt to bootstrap either a third-party package ecosystem (impossible in a culture that doesn't even know what a "library" is or why they should care) or even just get a basic AS stdlib bundled in macOS so I don't have copy-n-paste a goddamn TIDs-handler every single time I want to do a simple find-and-replace. Feel free to dupe it, or even just d/l the libs for your own personal use—it's still far better AS code than ever emitted from Apple Inc's own walls.
        nicky0 10y ago
        Some way for debugging scripts. Even a basic "print to console" function is lacking.
    - hhas01 10y ago
      Entire new language? You mean JavaScript for Automation in 2014? Or Scripting Bridge for Objective-C (and Python, Ruby, etc) in 2008? Protip: What matters is not the number of technologies in one's Product Management portfolio, but the number of new users - aka customers - those technologies have added to the company's revenue streams. Sal's product management portfolio has more new products in it than those new products have users. Every new product he's shipped has fallen on its arse, either because nobody ever bothered to sell or support it to customers, or because it was a broken useless POS that was DOA out the box. Lovely bloke, amazing user evangelist, most hopeless product manager ever. The only question you should ask is why didn't Apple think to sack the man years sooner!? Automation deserves better!
- pritambaral 10y ago
  I believe your parent was talking more from a hardware perspective.
  - endgame 10y ago
    Both hardware and Stallmanism. I'm a showered and beardless dirty free software hippie.
- protomyth 10y ago
  It has been broken in the Finder since Mavericks. I've filed radars, but its not as strong as ever.

by endgame 10y ago

>“the power of the computer should reside in the hands of the one using it.” A great vision, and one that I share. But I think that it's also a vision that is completely incompatible with Apple.

Razengan 10y ago

Automation in macOS appears to be remaining as strong as ever. What makes you think it has suffered? In fact, I believe macOS gives you more control than Windows.

tedmiston 10y ago
As strong as ever? Script Editor is practically abandoned... The guide about providing scripting definitions (making your program accessible via AppleScript) was last updated in 2008. [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ScriptableCocoaApplications/RevisionHistory.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002164-CH2-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Co...
- Razengan 10y ago
  It received an entire new language, and it still works, how is it abandoned? The state and currency of Apple's documentation is a different matter altogether. It's seriously outdated in a lot of places and in a need of a major overhaul.
  - tedmiston 10y ago
    The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. I have a strong premonition that JavaScript was added to potentially discontinue AppleScript. The revision history of the AppleScript docs is the third reason.
    - Razengan 10y ago
      > The editor application itself has remain essentially unchanged over the past decade. In what ways does it need changing? What improvements do you have in mind? I can only think of autocomplete, but the object browser/dictionary helps in its stead.
      - tedmiston 10y ago
        I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling me, but without being pedantic, it's a learning environment that lacks standard IDE features, including such basic things as line numbers and a context click for go to function definition. As far as I'm aware there is no third party package ecosystem for extending its limitations either.
        hhas01 10y ago
        They'd need to rewrite the AppleScript compiler and interpreter to support all that. It's pretty much a non-starter for building full modern tooling on top. There just aren't the hooks in either AppleScript or the OSA component API (which is the middleware that apps like Script Editor have to call through to interact with AS itself) to drop those in. And why would Apple invest a ton of capital doing that when there aren't any users for it anyway! ... Re. the missing library ecosystem in particular: AS didn't even have a built-in module loader until 10.9! And having landed that, the AS team didn't even bother to provide any standard libraries to go with it! How do they expect a full third-party ecosystem to spring up all around it overnight when they don't even bother to show AS users what the point of the damn thing is? See also: openradar.appspot.com/28465563, which is my third (and absolutely final) attempt to bootstrap either a third-party package ecosystem (impossible in a culture that doesn't even know what a "library" is or why they should care) or even just get a basic AS stdlib bundled in macOS so I don't have copy-n-paste a goddamn TIDs-handler every single time I want to do a simple find-and-replace. Feel free to dupe it, or even just d/l the libs for your own personal use—it's still far better AS code than ever emitted from Apple Inc's own walls.
      - nicky0 10y ago
        Some way for debugging scripts. Even a basic "print to console" function is lacking.
  - hhas01 10y ago
    Entire new language? You mean JavaScript for Automation in 2014? Or Scripting Bridge for Objective-C (and Python, Ruby, etc) in 2008? Protip: What matters is not the number of technologies in one's Product Management portfolio, but the number of new users - aka customers - those technologies have added to the company's revenue streams. Sal's product management portfolio has more new products in it than those new products have users. Every new product he's shipped has fallen on its arse, either because nobody ever bothered to sell or support it to customers, or because it was a broken useless POS that was DOA out the box. Lovely bloke, amazing user evangelist, most hopeless product manager ever. The only question you should ask is why didn't Apple think to sack the man years sooner!? Automation deserves better!
pritambaral 10y ago
I believe your parent was talking more from a hardware perspective.
- endgame 10y ago
  Both hardware and Stallmanism. I'm a showered and beardless dirty free software hippie.
protomyth 10y ago
It has been broken in the Finder since Mavericks. I've filed radars, but its not as strong as ever.