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I've always thought that [gay | labor | women's | black's | etc] rights all collapse to merely human rights, and find it curious that we see the need to carve i

I've always thought that [gay | labor | women's | black's | etc] rights all collapse to merely human rights, and find it curious that we see the need to carve it up in a whole bunch of special cases.

TNO 16y ago
I'm not so sure about labor rights... More info needed.
caryme 16y ago
That's just the thing. If we could realize that it's the same issue over and over again, perhaps it would become less of an issue. If only. In US-parlance, all men are created equal. We said that right off the bat. Once we decided that by men, we meant people, what further argument is there to have? All means all.
- smallblacksun 16y ago
  Murderers and pedophiles are okay then? No? So all doesn't mean all, but some subset of all.
  - caryme 16y ago
    Saying that all people are created equally does not mean that all people are free from error or consequence.
    - hoelle 16y ago
      Right, what about those who claim being homosexual is a choice? To blur the line more, what about killers who are insane?
      - boredguy8 16y ago
        Rushing to edge cases is just bad ethics.
      - joubert 16y ago
        If homosexuality is a choice, then i don't understand why not more people choose it - it is fabulous.
        gdee 16y ago
        I suppose your reply was made in a joking tone but maybe not it was not completely a joke. You made me curious. Why would homosexuality be fabulous? I mean, few of my friends are openly gay, maybe more are... I see no life quality differences between us based on that. Other criteria, sure, but sexual preference... no. I think it's just as fabulous either way. Why would you say otherwise? (assuming I was not wrong on it being only partly a joke)
      - nollidge 16y ago
        OK, fine, being gay is a choice. So?
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Let me know when you realize that 4 year olds are people too, and should have full human rights. If you won't accept that case, then you're part of the problem that doesn't see it's the same issue over and over.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Some of the human rights are conditional upon whether or not the person they are applied to is 'of age' or not. There are some inconsistencies but they've definitely managed to avoid most of them.
    - axod 16y ago
      ... and sound mind. Which may rule out women. (JOKING).
joubert 16y ago
In princle perhaps, but in practice what happens is that particular groups of people are specifically excluded in all sorts of insidious ways. Usually they're excluded by a "homogenous" majority (homogenous relative to the aspect that defines the minority) and so there is no incentive for members of the majority to stand up for those in the minority. Examples include gays' right to marry, women's right to vote, slaves' right to freedom, etc.
barry-cotter 16y ago
Where, exactly, do you draw the line? Do you want tolerance or support? Gay: Suppose the "gay germ theory"[1] is correct. To allow vaccination/prophylaxis or not? Labor: Freedom to legally organise is to me utterly unobjectionable, but I remember picking up a book on trade unionism in the library once and being completely unable to grasp the sense behind one of the articles in which the authors took it as given that striking should not even in theory be grounds for firing. Striking is part of a negotiation, it's a tool in the dance of "How shall we divide the money that is earned as a result of my employment between empolyer and employee?" Where is the "right" place between freedom to organise + at-will employment, and a system like France, where unions "represent" workers in their economic sector who aren't members and get legally binding regulations, or like Germany's, where union representatives are always on the board, with voting positions? Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work, and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career. Given the second, is the first unjust, especially if the difference when you compare like with like is small? Black's: Affirmative action here [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexuality#Pathogenic_hypothesis_of_homosexuality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexual...
- lena 16y ago
  Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours. and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career. Did you read the thread about job hoppers, where many men said that job hopping was a good thing because it was in their best interest?
  - gaius 16y ago
    The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours. I am really suspicious of this, because it simply doesn't match my own experience. I've worked behind a bar, I've been a lifeguard, I've done a few jobs in hi-tech and equality is the norm. Here in the UK the Office of National Statistics ripped apart Harriet Harman's figures on unequal pay... Turned out to get the political outcome she wanted, she was comparing the pay of female part-time workers to that of male full-time workers. Incidentally, 80% of those working more than 50 hrs/week are male, and 98% of those killed at work are male.
jacquesm 16y ago
Interesting you should say that. I was reading the declaration of human rights the other day and it struck me that we have a long long way to go before we can even begin to say that the majority of the countries that are signatory to it actually practice them all the time. It's really quite shocking how many of those 'basic principles' are trampled on a daily basis. There should be a long term trend towards respect for those principles in the countries that are signatory to them, but in fact, on some fronts especially privacy the trend is backwards.

I've always thought that [gay | labor | women's | black's | etc] rights all collapse to merely human rights, and find it curious that we see the need to carve it up in a whole bunch of special cases.

TNO 16y ago

I'm not so sure about labor rights... More info needed.

caryme 16y ago

That's just the thing. If we could realize that it's the same issue over and over again, perhaps it would become less of an issue. If only. In US-parlance, all men are created equal. We said that right off the bat. Once we decided that by men, we meant people, what further argument is there to have? All means all.

smallblacksun 16y ago
Murderers and pedophiles are okay then? No? So all doesn't mean all, but some subset of all.
- caryme 16y ago
  Saying that all people are created equally does not mean that all people are free from error or consequence.
  - hoelle 16y ago
    Right, what about those who claim being homosexual is a choice? To blur the line more, what about killers who are insane?
    - boredguy8 16y ago
      Rushing to edge cases is just bad ethics.
    - joubert 16y ago
      If homosexuality is a choice, then i don't understand why not more people choose it - it is fabulous.
      - gdee 16y ago
        I suppose your reply was made in a joking tone but maybe not it was not completely a joke. You made me curious. Why would homosexuality be fabulous? I mean, few of my friends are openly gay, maybe more are... I see no life quality differences between us based on that. Other criteria, sure, but sexual preference... no. I think it's just as fabulous either way. Why would you say otherwise? (assuming I was not wrong on it being only partly a joke)
    - nollidge 16y ago
      OK, fine, being gay is a choice. So?
xenophanes 16y ago
Let me know when you realize that 4 year olds are people too, and should have full human rights. If you won't accept that case, then you're part of the problem that doesn't see it's the same issue over and over.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Some of the human rights are conditional upon whether or not the person they are applied to is 'of age' or not. There are some inconsistencies but they've definitely managed to avoid most of them.
  - axod 16y ago
    ... and sound mind. Which may rule out women. (JOKING).

joubert 16y ago

In princle perhaps, but in practice what happens is that particular groups of people are specifically excluded in all sorts of insidious ways. Usually they're excluded by a "homogenous" majority (homogenous relative to the aspect that defines the minority) and so there is no incentive for members of the majority to stand up for those in the minority. Examples include gays' right to marry, women's right to vote, slaves' right to freedom, etc.

barry-cotter 16y ago

Where, exactly, do you draw the line? Do you want tolerance or support? Gay: Suppose the "gay germ theory"[1] is correct. To allow vaccination/prophylaxis or not? Labor: Freedom to legally organise is to me utterly unobjectionable, but I remember picking up a book on trade unionism in the library once and being completely unable to grasp the sense behind one of the articles in which the authors took it as given that striking should not even in theory be grounds for firing. Striking is part of a negotiation, it's a tool in the dance of "How shall we divide the money that is earned as a result of my employment between empolyer and employee?" Where is the "right" place between freedom to organise + at-will employment, and a system like France, where unions "represent" workers in their economic sector who aren't members and get legally binding regulations, or like Germany's, where union representatives are always on the board, with voting positions? Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work, and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career. Given the second, is the first unjust, especially if the difference when you compare like with like is small? Black's: Affirmative action here [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexuality#Pathogenic_hypothesis_of_homosexuality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_theory_of_homosexual...

lena 16y ago
Women's: Women make less than men on average. They also make very different choices of what jobs to work in, how many hours to work The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours. and they are much more likely to have interruptions in their career. Did you read the thread about job hoppers, where many men said that job hopping was a good thing because it was in their best interest?
- gaius 16y ago
  The problem is not that women make less than men on average, they often make less than men when doing the exact same job, for the exact same hours. I am really suspicious of this, because it simply doesn't match my own experience. I've worked behind a bar, I've been a lifeguard, I've done a few jobs in hi-tech and equality is the norm. Here in the UK the Office of National Statistics ripped apart Harriet Harman's figures on unequal pay... Turned out to get the political outcome she wanted, she was comparing the pay of female part-time workers to that of male full-time workers. Incidentally, 80% of those working more than 50 hrs/week are male, and 98% of those killed at work are male.

jacquesm 16y ago

Interesting you should say that. I was reading the declaration of human rights the other day and it struck me that we have a long long way to go before we can even begin to say that the majority of the countries that are signatory to it actually practice them all the time. It's really quite shocking how many of those 'basic principles' are trampled on a daily basis. There should be a long term trend towards respect for those principles in the countries that are signatory to them, but in fact, on some fronts especially privacy the trend is backwards.