8 ms·

Here's a simple test. Take someone's rhetoric, like "killallmen". And replace the target with "Jews". If the updated statement feels racist and evil, then th

by adekok 10y ago

Here's a simple test. Take someone's rhetoric, like "killallmen". And replace the target with "Jews". If the updated statement feels racist and evil, then the original is also racist and evil. There's an entire subreddit devoted to this idea: https://www.reddit.com/r/menkampf/ https://www.reddit.com/r/menkampf/ It's eye-opening just how racist many "mainstream" comments are.

FilterSweep 10y ago
Not to detract from your main message, but much of #killallmen was actually males from 4Chan during "Operation Lollipop" (source is a quick Google away off the quoted words). They also had #BanFathersDay trending
- adekok 10y ago
  There are many people who seriously advocate for this: Links: http://www.dailywire.com/news/8386/feminist-journalist-all-men-are-rapists-and-should-amanda-prestigiacomo# http://www.dailywire.com/news/8386/feminist-journalist-all-m... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/is-reducing-the-male-population-by-90-percent-the-solution-to-all-our-problems http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/is-reducing-the-male-populati... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly Quotes: “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart Or Marilyn French, who believes that all men are rapists, and that in private, they boast to each other about how many women they've raped. And that the population of men should be reduced.
moskie 10y ago
But the difference is the context of history, right? While I definitely don't advocate for any "killallmen" stuff, I can recognize the difference between Jews, who were the actual target of a real genocide in which millions died and whose people are located in a country in a region embroiled in actual physical wars, vs men who are the target of.... internet campaigns? A key aspect is how these sentiments manifest (or have manifested) in a tangible sense.
- adekok 10y ago
  I don't want to go down the path of who was oppressed, or how, or why. I will say that advocating for genocide is wrong. This shouldn't be rocket science. Advocating for the death or oppression of any group "just 'cause" is wrong. People shouldn't do it. Their behavior shouldn't be condoned, or excused as "they don't really mean it", or "they're not really going to do it", or "other people have it worse". Personally, I've never advocated for genocide, and never defended anyone who advocates for genocide. The idea horrifies me.
  - moskie 10y ago
    Sure, but can you at least recognize that conflating what's happening here to men (an internet campaign that has no signs of manifesting in the real world in any significant way) vs. what Jews have experienced is not a useful thing to do? It is a huge false equivalence. You can believe that both are bad, while also saying that one of the two is much, much worse to the point that the comparison is unjust.
    - adekok 10y ago
      > an internet campaign that has no signs of manifesting in the real world in any significant way Then you're not paying attention. See my other links. > You can believe that both are bad, while also saying that one of the two is much, much worse to the point that the comparison is unjust. Your argument comes across that advocating genocide isn't really that bad, because they don't really intend to do it, and anyways, the Holocaust was worse. I find that entirely unconvincing. Morally bankrupt may be a better description.
      - moskie 10y ago
        Your idea that men and Jews are equivalently oppressed, to the point where you seem to believe it is invalid to point out that these situations are different and require different responses, is psychotic and incredibly toxic, and I will not humor it. The evidence you provide is an overtly anti-Semitic subreddit that makes its "point" by minimizing the Holocaust via a word game, and yet you question my morals. I see a world where the "oppression" of men takes the form of a handful of anecdotes of people saying mean things (that I concede they should not say), compared the oppression of Jews that takes the form of systemic violence (https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012/topic-pages/victims/victims_final https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012/topic-pages/victims/vict... "62.4 percent [of anti-religious hate crime victims] were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias."). The willful non-recognition that these are different types of issues that require different responses is naked bigotry.

by adekok 10y ago

FilterSweep 10y ago

Not to detract from your main message, but much of #killallmen was actually males from 4Chan during "Operation Lollipop" (source is a quick Google away off the quoted words). They also had #BanFathersDay trending

adekok 10y ago
There are many people who seriously advocate for this: Links: http://www.dailywire.com/news/8386/feminist-journalist-all-men-are-rapists-and-should-amanda-prestigiacomo# http://www.dailywire.com/news/8386/feminist-journalist-all-m... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/is-reducing-the-male-population-by-90-percent-the-solution-to-all-our-problems http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/is-reducing-the-male-populati... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly Quotes: “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart Or Marilyn French, who believes that all men are rapists, and that in private, they boast to each other about how many women they've raped. And that the population of men should be reduced.

moskie 10y ago

But the difference is the context of history, right? While I definitely don't advocate for any "killallmen" stuff, I can recognize the difference between Jews, who were the actual target of a real genocide in which millions died and whose people are located in a country in a region embroiled in actual physical wars, vs men who are the target of.... internet campaigns? A key aspect is how these sentiments manifest (or have manifested) in a tangible sense.

adekok 10y ago
I don't want to go down the path of who was oppressed, or how, or why. I will say that advocating for genocide is wrong. This shouldn't be rocket science. Advocating for the death or oppression of any group "just 'cause" is wrong. People shouldn't do it. Their behavior shouldn't be condoned, or excused as "they don't really mean it", or "they're not really going to do it", or "other people have it worse". Personally, I've never advocated for genocide, and never defended anyone who advocates for genocide. The idea horrifies me.
- moskie 10y ago
  Sure, but can you at least recognize that conflating what's happening here to men (an internet campaign that has no signs of manifesting in the real world in any significant way) vs. what Jews have experienced is not a useful thing to do? It is a huge false equivalence. You can believe that both are bad, while also saying that one of the two is much, much worse to the point that the comparison is unjust.
  - adekok 10y ago
    > an internet campaign that has no signs of manifesting in the real world in any significant way Then you're not paying attention. See my other links. > You can believe that both are bad, while also saying that one of the two is much, much worse to the point that the comparison is unjust. Your argument comes across that advocating genocide isn't really that bad, because they don't really intend to do it, and anyways, the Holocaust was worse. I find that entirely unconvincing. Morally bankrupt may be a better description.
    - moskie 10y ago
      Your idea that men and Jews are equivalently oppressed, to the point where you seem to believe it is invalid to point out that these situations are different and require different responses, is psychotic and incredibly toxic, and I will not humor it. The evidence you provide is an overtly anti-Semitic subreddit that makes its "point" by minimizing the Holocaust via a word game, and yet you question my morals. I see a world where the "oppression" of men takes the form of a handful of anecdotes of people saying mean things (that I concede they should not say), compared the oppression of Jews that takes the form of systemic violence (https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012/topic-pages/victims/victims_final https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012/topic-pages/victims/vict... "62.4 percent [of anti-religious hate crime victims] were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias."). The willful non-recognition that these are different types of issues that require different responses is naked bigotry.