4 ms·

It's absolutely possible to retain idiom, phrasing and even the poetry of a text, all while retaining meaning. Particularly if the source and target languages a

by luxpir 10y ago

It's absolutely possible to retain idiom, phrasing and even the poetry of a text, all while retaining meaning. Particularly if the source and target languages are culturally and linguistically similar. In fact you have to, as the translation has to retain the original meaning. The tradeoff is in not losing the above. But sometimes that's not necessary. A reference, guide or manual, for instance. A contract. A patent. Records of legal proceedings. Scientific/medical texts. Dozens/hundreds of examples where it's not necessary. Fiction, that's another matter, but it doesn't account for anywhere near the majority of the world's $40bn annual spend on translation. And if you like the original so much, you can always learn the language ;)

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Well for instance, I was trying to find out what "itadakimasu" says (which many Japanese persons say before eating food prepared for them). Its almost impossible to get a literal translation from anybody (including Google Translate, which says Let's Eat).
- luxpir 10y ago
  Not sure if Google Translate is the best research tool for an archaic idiom... Duckduckgo threw up this: https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/itadakimasu-meaning/ https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/itadakimasu-meaning/ Thanks for the interesting read :)
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    A good example - that link has eight (8!) different English translations for the phrase's meaning. Surely the phrase is made up of words, and its possible to tell us how those words translate individually! If I break it up into 'ita daki masu' then Google Translate emits "I will start with you." Again, no idea if that's even close.
    - luxpir 10y ago
      I'm tempted to think, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you may be looking at language too mechanically. Not sure if I can explain what I mean in a 2 minute HN comment, but I'll try: The word for word, literal translation, for which you express your preference in the parent comment, rarely works to translate meaning, particularly when it comes to idiom. And I'm not talking about the grammar, but cultural references that can only be similarly expressed in translation if no matching idiom exists. An alternative strategy is to just use the original (potentially with an explainer, under creative license) assuming the reader is aware that this is a translation and the text is based in the source language's location/culture. "It's raining cats and dogs" has an equivalent in most languages. "Lagom" in Swedish doesn't. You could say it's similar to the "itadakimasu" concept of 'being grateful'. It is often translated as 'enough', but even that is woefully lacking. "Itadakimasu" also falls under the sorry, no specific equivalent here banner since it is specific to JP culture. What are you hoping to find from the individual words? The etymology of the word is described in the 'Itadakimasu History' section, with references to mountain tops, bowing, gratefulness. Are you looking for a single, one-size-fits all equivalent word? Are you looking to understand it's history, or how to use it? The article is pretty comprehensive. And let's bear in mind that we may be over-analysing. Thousands of Japanese 5 year olds probably said itadakimasu today without a thought.

by luxpir 10y ago

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Well for instance, I was trying to find out what "itadakimasu" says (which many Japanese persons say before eating food prepared for them). Its almost impossible to get a literal translation from anybody (including Google Translate, which says Let's Eat).

luxpir 10y ago
Not sure if Google Translate is the best research tool for an archaic idiom... Duckduckgo threw up this: https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/itadakimasu-meaning/ https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/itadakimasu-meaning/ Thanks for the interesting read :)
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  A good example - that link has eight (8!) different English translations for the phrase's meaning. Surely the phrase is made up of words, and its possible to tell us how those words translate individually! If I break it up into 'ita daki masu' then Google Translate emits "I will start with you." Again, no idea if that's even close.
  - luxpir 10y ago
    I'm tempted to think, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you may be looking at language too mechanically. Not sure if I can explain what I mean in a 2 minute HN comment, but I'll try: The word for word, literal translation, for which you express your preference in the parent comment, rarely works to translate meaning, particularly when it comes to idiom. And I'm not talking about the grammar, but cultural references that can only be similarly expressed in translation if no matching idiom exists. An alternative strategy is to just use the original (potentially with an explainer, under creative license) assuming the reader is aware that this is a translation and the text is based in the source language's location/culture. "It's raining cats and dogs" has an equivalent in most languages. "Lagom" in Swedish doesn't. You could say it's similar to the "itadakimasu" concept of 'being grateful'. It is often translated as 'enough', but even that is woefully lacking. "Itadakimasu" also falls under the sorry, no specific equivalent here banner since it is specific to JP culture. What are you hoping to find from the individual words? The etymology of the word is described in the 'Itadakimasu History' section, with references to mountain tops, bowing, gratefulness. Are you looking for a single, one-size-fits all equivalent word? Are you looking to understand it's history, or how to use it? The article is pretty comprehensive. And let's bear in mind that we may be over-analysing. Thousands of Japanese 5 year olds probably said itadakimasu today without a thought.