5 ms·

> it's so at odds with anything I've observed so far that I can't but wonder. Can't but wonder... what exactly? I've lived in SF for almost 6 years, during w

by GuiA 10y ago

> it's so at odds with anything I've observed so far that I can't but wonder. Can't but wonder... what exactly? I've lived in SF for almost 6 years, during which I've worked with many, many teenagers from East Palo Alto/Oakland/etc., and while I still have no clue what it's like to be in SF as a non tech employee, I feel like I have a better grasp on it than most of my fellow tech employees. The truth is that if you are in tech and living in SF, you definitely are living in a bubble. The San Francisco experience as a JavaScript engineer and as a dishwasher or security guard are indeed two different realities. Pretty much every single minority (immigrant, person of color, woman, etc.) in this country feels that the odds are rigged against them, and that hard work does little against it. People like to think of the Bay Area as a haven of peace and acceptance - it's just not the case. I'd recommend volunteering and spending more time around diverse groups of people if you feel that this stuff is out of touch with your reality. The fact that you've lived in SF for more than a decade and this is shocking to you means you're strongly due for stepping out of your comfort zone.

smsm42 10y ago
> Can't but wonder... what exactly? Whether it is a real thing which I missed or it is a misperception, and how common it is if it is real. > The San Francisco experience as a JavaScript engineer and as a dishwasher or security guard are indeed two different realities. Surely. So for the latter, is there really reluctance to hire "foreigners", i.e. somebody objecting that their dishwasher or security guard would be from Serbia (or other country) and not US-born? How common is it? How these people staff their positions, given how many people fit one or another definition of "foreigner" in SF? > I'd recommend volunteering and spending more time around diverse groups of people if you feel that this stuff is out of touch with your reality. This is a nice generic advice, but I'd like to hear something more specific. I know it's different, now I want to know how it is different. How hard is it for a foreign-born dishwasher do find a job in SF? Would restaurants and other places commonly refuse to hire somebody as a dishwasher because they don't look like a typical non-foreigner (whatever that means for them) and how many of them do that - almost all of them, majority, minority, only the handful of worst ones? What is the percentage of "foreigners" vs. "non-foreigners" (whatever definition there is, not sure again) working such jobs?
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  > This is a nice generic advice, but I'd like to hear something more specific. Googling "homeless volunteer YOUR_CITY_HERE" would be a start. > Would restaurants and other places commonly refuse to hire somebody as a dishwasher because they don't look like a typical non-foreigner Definitely. Many bars and nightclubs have an unwritten rule that limits the number/ratio of certain minorities at any given time. > how many of them do that - almost all of them, majority, minority, only the handful of worst ones? What is the percentage of "foreigners" vs. "non-foreigners" (whatever definition there is, not sure again) working such jobs? You'll never get this data down to a granular level unless people are truthful about their prejudices towards certain minority, ethnic, religious, etc. groups
  - smsm42 10y ago
    > Googling "homeless volunteer YOUR_CITY_HERE" would be a start. I'm not sure however how it is going to help me with knowing about hiring policies. Also, call me lazy, but I assume at least some of the people may already have information I need and can share. Maybe not true, but doesn't hurt to ask. Not to diminish the idea of volunteering as such, of course. > Definitely. Many bars and nightclubs have an unwritten rule that limits the number/ratio of certain minorities at any given time. "Certain minorities"? Which ones? What kind of limits, could you provide some examples?
    - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
      > "Certain minorities"? Which ones? What kind of limits, could you provide some examples? This happened to me (am black). I didn't inquire about the exact ratio that the owner found acceptable, but he only wanted a certain number in the club at a time. Since I didn't enter and obviously never returned to such a place, I don't know if even 1 was too many. > I'm not sure however how it is going to help me with knowing about hiring policies. It is nearly impossible to get any quantitative data because it is illegal to not hire based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc. and it is not a policy. People are reticent to disclose their prejudices and biases to those who do not share them

by GuiA 10y ago

smsm42 10y ago

> Can't but wonder... what exactly? Whether it is a real thing which I missed or it is a misperception, and how common it is if it is real. > The San Francisco experience as a JavaScript engineer and as a dishwasher or security guard are indeed two different realities. Surely. So for the latter, is there really reluctance to hire "foreigners", i.e. somebody objecting that their dishwasher or security guard would be from Serbia (or other country) and not US-born? How common is it? How these people staff their positions, given how many people fit one or another definition of "foreigner" in SF? > I'd recommend volunteering and spending more time around diverse groups of people if you feel that this stuff is out of touch with your reality. This is a nice generic advice, but I'd like to hear something more specific. I know it's different, now I want to know how it is different. How hard is it for a foreign-born dishwasher do find a job in SF? Would restaurants and other places commonly refuse to hire somebody as a dishwasher because they don't look like a typical non-foreigner (whatever that means for them) and how many of them do that - almost all of them, majority, minority, only the handful of worst ones? What is the percentage of "foreigners" vs. "non-foreigners" (whatever definition there is, not sure again) working such jobs?

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
> This is a nice generic advice, but I'd like to hear something more specific. Googling "homeless volunteer YOUR_CITY_HERE" would be a start. > Would restaurants and other places commonly refuse to hire somebody as a dishwasher because they don't look like a typical non-foreigner Definitely. Many bars and nightclubs have an unwritten rule that limits the number/ratio of certain minorities at any given time. > how many of them do that - almost all of them, majority, minority, only the handful of worst ones? What is the percentage of "foreigners" vs. "non-foreigners" (whatever definition there is, not sure again) working such jobs? You'll never get this data down to a granular level unless people are truthful about their prejudices towards certain minority, ethnic, religious, etc. groups
- smsm42 10y ago
  > Googling "homeless volunteer YOUR_CITY_HERE" would be a start. I'm not sure however how it is going to help me with knowing about hiring policies. Also, call me lazy, but I assume at least some of the people may already have information I need and can share. Maybe not true, but doesn't hurt to ask. Not to diminish the idea of volunteering as such, of course. > Definitely. Many bars and nightclubs have an unwritten rule that limits the number/ratio of certain minorities at any given time. "Certain minorities"? Which ones? What kind of limits, could you provide some examples?
  - FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
    > "Certain minorities"? Which ones? What kind of limits, could you provide some examples? This happened to me (am black). I didn't inquire about the exact ratio that the owner found acceptable, but he only wanted a certain number in the club at a time. Since I didn't enter and obviously never returned to such a place, I don't know if even 1 was too many. > I'm not sure however how it is going to help me with knowing about hiring policies. It is nearly impossible to get any quantitative data because it is illegal to not hire based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc. and it is not a policy. People are reticent to disclose their prejudices and biases to those who do not share them