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Which is all very gung-ho and all that, until you consider the thousands [edited - hundreds] of German civilian men, women and children who drowned in the valle

Which is all very gung-ho and all that, until you consider the thousands [edited - hundreds] of German civilian men, women and children who drowned in the valley after the dam breach. [0] [0] - http://www.abroadintheyard.com/german-survivors-of-dambusters-raid-remember-human-cost/ http://www.abroadintheyard.com/german-survivors-of-dambuster...

sujayakar 10y ago
It's one of those moments in war where technology leaps ahead of international law. Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions in 1977 outlawed the attack of "works or installations containing dangerous forces" to the civilian population [1]. You'd be very hard-pressed to argue it was illegal at the time. Whether it was immoral is, of course, up for debate! [1] https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750071?OpenDocument https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750071?OpenDoc...
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Oh I agree with you. It is just that the dam busters raid was such a powerful propaganda piece - "English ingenuity over the Evil Empire" type thing, and I truly do admire the technical skills and bravery involved in the whole raid. But the downvotes that my comment above (and no doubt this one) gets just exacerbates the whitewashing of Allied atrocities during WWII. Case in point: "Bomber command lost nearly 50% of their crew during WWII" - "Oh dear that is terrible tragedy - upvotes for you, my friend for pointing out this invaluable fact." "Lots of German civilians were killed in the floods after the Dambuster raid" - "Meh, who cares? Cost of war. Downvoted. NEXT!"
  - sujayakar 10y ago
    Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting to compare Germany with Japan in that case. Japanese cultural memory and historiography intensely remembers the suffering of civilians from famine, firebombing, and nuclear weapons [1] (but rarely from the military itself [2]), but even suggesting that German civilians suffered unnecessarily from strategic bombing in Der Brand (2002) earned Jörg Friedrich, a German historian of Nazi war crimes, widespread censure. [1] Grave of the Fireflies is a gorgeous, heartbreaking film. Highly recommended! [2] See the discussion of Okinawa in http://apjjf.org/-Mark-Selden/3173/article.html http://apjjf.org/-Mark-Selden/3173/article.html
  - nsomaru 10y ago
    Hmm. I suppose this would be unfair if it were just a case of "Allies won and Axis didn't, so let's tell Allied stories and not Axis ones." But the Germans were aggressors in this case, whose democratically elected leader initiated and waged one of the most terrible wars that the world has ever seen. So maybe the reaction you're seeing is a result of that?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Not sure if it helps, but previously I've mentioned the bombing of civilians: 3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5932493#5934692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5932493#5934692 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9171303#9171730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9171303#9171730
- fnj 10y ago
  But hard pressed to argue that waging war against innocent civilians was against accepted ethics? I hardly think so. It was considered unacceptable by the civilized world in the 1930s[1]. WW II rapidly saw it become the norm, as tit-for-tat spread. [1] https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/ww2/projects/firebombing/targeting-civilians.htm https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/ww2/projects...
quirkafleeg 10y ago
> thousands of German civilian men, women and children who drowned From your own link: At least 1,650 people were killed [...] Over 1000 of the dead were prisoners of war and *forced- labourers*, mainly Russian men and women. Poor Germans though, eh.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Poor non combatants though, eh. Argue semantics if you like, but entire families were wiped out in the raid. You probably have an 'acceptable number' of women and children that can be destroyed to "save allied soldier's lives" but for a lot of people, that number is zero.
  - quirkafleeg 10y ago
    What does this have to do with you falsely claiming thousands of Germans died, when in fact most of the people who died were victims of the Germans and were only there in the first place because of barbaric and racialist German policies? Edit: Well if he can whinge about downvotes, and get upvoted as a result, maybe I'll try. Didn't realize HN was such a haven for neo-Nazis.
    - cyberferret 10y ago
      Okay then, I'll edit my post to more accurately say hundreds of Germans civilians died. Let me know at which collective number you will finally stop deflecting and say "Gee, you know - that IS a terrible tragedy"... Edited after seeing your edit above: You seem to be equating all the German population in WWII as Nazis. I think I am beginning to understand the agenda of your posts now.
      - quirkafleeg 10y ago
        Why not edit your post to more accurately to say hundreds of German civilians died, along with over one thousand victims of German barbarity, who only died because of German barbarity? Is there a specific reason why you only want to fixate on German victims?
taneq 10y ago
This wasn't a polite, 'gentlemanly' war like the ones in the middle ages with mounted cavalry lining up amidst trumpets and banners. This was an actual fight to the death.
- charles_teise 10y ago
  And yet, somehow, I sense a hint of relishment in your reproach.
elfyhat 10y ago
(Apologies up front for the length of this post, I did not intend it to get this long when I started..) I realize I’m a little late to the comments here and it’s unlikely to be seen, but there’s a dissonance that’s been stewing in me for a while now and I’m not sure how to reconcile it. It relates to the dichotomy between JackFr posting his fondness for a badge with cyberferret’s response, so this is why I’m replying here (if someone can suggest a more appropriate forum for me to ask this, please let me know). I abhor war and death and killing. It’s vile, disgusting and so many other words I’m not literate enough to use to describe it. The very act of snuffing out another human’s life is something so imaginably terrible to me that when I dwell much upon it I become profoundly sad. And yet, there’s another side of me that’s utterly fascinated by the actual implements of warfare. My father was in Vietnam and although he doesn’t like to talk about it often, I know it was a very unpleasant experience for him, particularly the time he described when he would have to carry body bags off the C-130s on base. Despite that, when I was growing up, I was given army men and plastic tanks by my parents to play with, toy guns, you name it. I fondly remember my father bringing home a variable swept wing toy jet fighter that I cherished. In my teens I pretended I was going nap of the earth in the chopper milsims available on the PC at the time. Fast forward to today, I can sometimes spend hours getting lost in the endless rabbit hole of links on wikipedia reading about anything from the minute details of how the Exocet sea-skimming missile operates to the different types of recoilless rifles in service around the world. Or scrolling through google images admiring the sleep and sexy curves on the F/A-18. I enjoy watching movies like “We Were Soldiers” too. The scene where all the artillery batteries arrayed fired in unison I sometimes rewind a couple times just to see it over again because I find it awesomely impressive and…kind of “cool?” I watch the movie to be entertained… This post/question is long enough so I'll try to wrap it up quickly here and get to my point: I don’t want to go to war. I don’t want to see my brother get sent back overseas. I don’t want anyone’s sons or daughters, wives, husbands, loved ones sent to pick up arms, no matter their race, nationality, creed and regardless of wherever they call home. I wish all killing would stop, however utopian that view might be. I wish we could all experience the “Overview Effect.” But how do I reconcile this view with my fascination of the instruments of war? I can’t help but find it incredibly impressive to watch a WW2 era battleship fire full broadsides. I enjoy visiting my brother and firing his firearms like an M1 Garand. Am I wrong for “enjoying” these things which seem at complete odds to the way (I’d like to think) my moral compass points? Is this normal?

sujayakar 10y ago

It's one of those moments in war where technology leaps ahead of international law. Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions in 1977 outlawed the attack of "works or installations containing dangerous forces" to the civilian population [1]. You'd be very hard-pressed to argue it was illegal at the time. Whether it was immoral is, of course, up for debate! [1] https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750071?OpenDocument https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750071?OpenDoc...

cyberferret 10y ago
Oh I agree with you. It is just that the dam busters raid was such a powerful propaganda piece - "English ingenuity over the Evil Empire" type thing, and I truly do admire the technical skills and bravery involved in the whole raid. But the downvotes that my comment above (and no doubt this one) gets just exacerbates the whitewashing of Allied atrocities during WWII. Case in point: "Bomber command lost nearly 50% of their crew during WWII" - "Oh dear that is terrible tragedy - upvotes for you, my friend for pointing out this invaluable fact." "Lots of German civilians were killed in the floods after the Dambuster raid" - "Meh, who cares? Cost of war. Downvoted. NEXT!"
- sujayakar 10y ago
  Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting to compare Germany with Japan in that case. Japanese cultural memory and historiography intensely remembers the suffering of civilians from famine, firebombing, and nuclear weapons [1] (but rarely from the military itself [2]), but even suggesting that German civilians suffered unnecessarily from strategic bombing in Der Brand (2002) earned Jörg Friedrich, a German historian of Nazi war crimes, widespread censure. [1] Grave of the Fireflies is a gorgeous, heartbreaking film. Highly recommended! [2] See the discussion of Okinawa in http://apjjf.org/-Mark-Selden/3173/article.html http://apjjf.org/-Mark-Selden/3173/article.html
- nsomaru 10y ago
  Hmm. I suppose this would be unfair if it were just a case of "Allies won and Axis didn't, so let's tell Allied stories and not Axis ones." But the Germans were aggressors in this case, whose democratically elected leader initiated and waged one of the most terrible wars that the world has ever seen. So maybe the reaction you're seeing is a result of that?
- DanBC 10y ago
  Not sure if it helps, but previously I've mentioned the bombing of civilians: 3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5932493#5934692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5932493#5934692 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9171303#9171730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9171303#9171730
fnj 10y ago
But hard pressed to argue that waging war against innocent civilians was against accepted ethics? I hardly think so. It was considered unacceptable by the civilized world in the 1930s[1]. WW II rapidly saw it become the norm, as tit-for-tat spread. [1] https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/ww2/projects/firebombing/targeting-civilians.htm https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/ww2/projects...

quirkafleeg 10y ago

> thousands of German civilian men, women and children who drowned From your own link: At least 1,650 people were killed [...] Over 1000 of the dead were prisoners of war and *forced- labourers*, mainly Russian men and women. Poor Germans though, eh.

cyberferret 10y ago
Poor non combatants though, eh. Argue semantics if you like, but entire families were wiped out in the raid. You probably have an 'acceptable number' of women and children that can be destroyed to "save allied soldier's lives" but for a lot of people, that number is zero.
- quirkafleeg 10y ago
  What does this have to do with you falsely claiming thousands of Germans died, when in fact most of the people who died were victims of the Germans and were only there in the first place because of barbaric and racialist German policies? Edit: Well if he can whinge about downvotes, and get upvoted as a result, maybe I'll try. Didn't realize HN was such a haven for neo-Nazis.
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    Okay then, I'll edit my post to more accurately say hundreds of Germans civilians died. Let me know at which collective number you will finally stop deflecting and say "Gee, you know - that IS a terrible tragedy"... Edited after seeing your edit above: You seem to be equating all the German population in WWII as Nazis. I think I am beginning to understand the agenda of your posts now.
    - quirkafleeg 10y ago
      Why not edit your post to more accurately to say hundreds of German civilians died, along with over one thousand victims of German barbarity, who only died because of German barbarity? Is there a specific reason why you only want to fixate on German victims?

taneq 10y ago

This wasn't a polite, 'gentlemanly' war like the ones in the middle ages with mounted cavalry lining up amidst trumpets and banners. This was an actual fight to the death.

charles_teise 10y ago
And yet, somehow, I sense a hint of relishment in your reproach.

elfyhat 10y ago

(Apologies up front for the length of this post, I did not intend it to get this long when I started..) I realize I’m a little late to the comments here and it’s unlikely to be seen, but there’s a dissonance that’s been stewing in me for a while now and I’m not sure how to reconcile it. It relates to the dichotomy between JackFr posting his fondness for a badge with cyberferret’s response, so this is why I’m replying here (if someone can suggest a more appropriate forum for me to ask this, please let me know). I abhor war and death and killing. It’s vile, disgusting and so many other words I’m not literate enough to use to describe it. The very act of snuffing out another human’s life is something so imaginably terrible to me that when I dwell much upon it I become profoundly sad. And yet, there’s another side of me that’s utterly fascinated by the actual implements of warfare. My father was in Vietnam and although he doesn’t like to talk about it often, I know it was a very unpleasant experience for him, particularly the time he described when he would have to carry body bags off the C-130s on base. Despite that, when I was growing up, I was given army men and plastic tanks by my parents to play with, toy guns, you name it. I fondly remember my father bringing home a variable swept wing toy jet fighter that I cherished. In my teens I pretended I was going nap of the earth in the chopper milsims available on the PC at the time. Fast forward to today, I can sometimes spend hours getting lost in the endless rabbit hole of links on wikipedia reading about anything from the minute details of how the Exocet sea-skimming missile operates to the different types of recoilless rifles in service around the world. Or scrolling through google images admiring the sleep and sexy curves on the F/A-18. I enjoy watching movies like “We Were Soldiers” too. The scene where all the artillery batteries arrayed fired in unison I sometimes rewind a couple times just to see it over again because I find it awesomely impressive and…kind of “cool?” I watch the movie to be entertained… This post/question is long enough so I'll try to wrap it up quickly here and get to my point: I don’t want to go to war. I don’t want to see my brother get sent back overseas. I don’t want anyone’s sons or daughters, wives, husbands, loved ones sent to pick up arms, no matter their race, nationality, creed and regardless of wherever they call home. I wish all killing would stop, however utopian that view might be. I wish we could all experience the “Overview Effect.” But how do I reconcile this view with my fascination of the instruments of war? I can’t help but find it incredibly impressive to watch a WW2 era battleship fire full broadsides. I enjoy visiting my brother and firing his firearms like an M1 Garand. Am I wrong for “enjoying” these things which seem at complete odds to the way (I’d like to think) my moral compass points? Is this normal?