4 ms·

What will happen is that in some time there will nothing left to be said. Mind you, I'm drawing a line between incitement (flat out saying "go and do something

by inerte 17y ago

What will happen is that in some time there will nothing left to be said. Mind you, I'm drawing a line between incitement (flat out saying "go and do something wrong") and saying something knowing others, in reaction, will do something wrong. You're opening the opportunity for every type of speech to be silenced. Example? If you disagree with me, I will kill every poney in the world. Now you see, we can't even discuss the chance of having a discussion. Also, one last point to be made: How do you "tone down" against a belief that EVERY visual representation of a person is wrong?

ErrantX 17y ago
> If you disagree with me, I will kill every poney in the world. The only real point there is that is an unlikely threat. I can ignore it. If a substantial number of people developed a long history of killing ponies and then made that threat I might reconsider. One of two things has to happen in my mind. Either we have to ignore the terrorists - which is my preferred solution, but I highly doubt the media will let us. Or we avoid inciting them for a bit as best we can whilst eradicating the problem.
- inerte 17y ago
  You know that blame means punishment right? I just drew Mohammed on a napkin. Do you think I should pay a fine, go to jail, something?... If you think "of course not, don't be silly", then tell me how can I know, prior to expressing my thoughts, if my work will result in a murder. What's a substantial amount of people, how much time is a long history? You're saying there's a line that speech should not cross, because after a certain point bad things will happen. Where is that line? You're being vague if you say "some people, long history, napkim is okay, cartoon in national newspaper is not". I want to be a law abiding citizen. Should the government publish a list of prohibited things to say? A civilian committee? Should I use "common sense" (as if there's anything common in 2 billion people and 2 major religions spanning 2 thousand years). Or will I only know if what I said was okay after someone killed? There are serious implications on who you choose to blame, I don't think you've thought this one through.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > I just drew Mohammed on a napkin. Do you think I should pay a fine, go to jail, something?... You know that's not what I mean :) and it's unrelated. Also your definition of blame is fallacious because punishment does not always take the form of jail/fine (i.e. social blame, personal blame). Besides your action is not inciting; who will see it? If you now go into the town centre and happen to post it near a mosque athat has potential to be inciting. And you need to consider whether that is the sensible thing to do. (the answer is; it's probably fine because no one is likely to get killed) > then tell me how can I know, prior to expressing my thoughts, if my work will result in a murder. Strawman; there is ample precedent for media, particularly cartoons, to cause offence and elicit extremist response. > You're being vague if you say "some people, long history, napkim is okay, cartoon in national newspaper is not". I want to be a law abiding citizen. Should the government publish a list of prohibited things to say? Deliberately so; it's a personal choice, not something anyone else should decide! > I don't think you've thought this one through. You skirt around some good points - particularly with regards to "social interference" (i.e. a moral brigade deciding what is right/wrong to publish based on their feeling on what will cause extremist response). However I think you make a few fatal mistakes in rhetoric (mostly by building on increasingly shaking links); ultimately I'm not sure you've thought the counter argument through clearly.
    - inerte 17y ago
      Just to let you know I think we're in a point where the medium doesn't help either one of us to convince the other of anything, so I really would have some additional stuff to say (I do have the modern judicial system on my side, after all ;)) but I'm going to choose not do it right now, here on this board. Agree to disagree?
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        Heh, yeh good reminder.. I actually never thought it would spurn such a big thread. My fault. I suspect I've just not really put my idea out there very well. It happens. > Agree to disagree? Done.

by inerte 17y ago

ErrantX 17y ago

> If you disagree with me, I will kill every poney in the world. The only real point there is that is an unlikely threat. I can ignore it. If a substantial number of people developed a long history of killing ponies and then made that threat I might reconsider. One of two things has to happen in my mind. Either we have to ignore the terrorists - which is my preferred solution, but I highly doubt the media will let us. Or we avoid inciting them for a bit as best we can whilst eradicating the problem.

inerte 17y ago
You know that blame means punishment right? I just drew Mohammed on a napkin. Do you think I should pay a fine, go to jail, something?... If you think "of course not, don't be silly", then tell me how can I know, prior to expressing my thoughts, if my work will result in a murder. What's a substantial amount of people, how much time is a long history? You're saying there's a line that speech should not cross, because after a certain point bad things will happen. Where is that line? You're being vague if you say "some people, long history, napkim is okay, cartoon in national newspaper is not". I want to be a law abiding citizen. Should the government publish a list of prohibited things to say? A civilian committee? Should I use "common sense" (as if there's anything common in 2 billion people and 2 major religions spanning 2 thousand years). Or will I only know if what I said was okay after someone killed? There are serious implications on who you choose to blame, I don't think you've thought this one through.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > I just drew Mohammed on a napkin. Do you think I should pay a fine, go to jail, something?... You know that's not what I mean :) and it's unrelated. Also your definition of blame is fallacious because punishment does not always take the form of jail/fine (i.e. social blame, personal blame). Besides your action is not inciting; who will see it? If you now go into the town centre and happen to post it near a mosque athat has potential to be inciting. And you need to consider whether that is the sensible thing to do. (the answer is; it's probably fine because no one is likely to get killed) > then tell me how can I know, prior to expressing my thoughts, if my work will result in a murder. Strawman; there is ample precedent for media, particularly cartoons, to cause offence and elicit extremist response. > You're being vague if you say "some people, long history, napkim is okay, cartoon in national newspaper is not". I want to be a law abiding citizen. Should the government publish a list of prohibited things to say? Deliberately so; it's a personal choice, not something anyone else should decide! > I don't think you've thought this one through. You skirt around some good points - particularly with regards to "social interference" (i.e. a moral brigade deciding what is right/wrong to publish based on their feeling on what will cause extremist response). However I think you make a few fatal mistakes in rhetoric (mostly by building on increasingly shaking links); ultimately I'm not sure you've thought the counter argument through clearly.
  - inerte 17y ago
    Just to let you know I think we're in a point where the medium doesn't help either one of us to convince the other of anything, so I really would have some additional stuff to say (I do have the modern judicial system on my side, after all ;)) but I'm going to choose not do it right now, here on this board. Agree to disagree?
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      Heh, yeh good reminder.. I actually never thought it would spurn such a big thread. My fault. I suspect I've just not really put my idea out there very well. It happens. > Agree to disagree? Done.