4 ms·

I'm sorry but, if you "threw a huge number of particles into a self-contained environment and let them stir for a while," you should have a purely deterministic

I'm sorry but, if you "threw a huge number of particles into a self-contained environment and let them stir for a while," you should have a purely deterministic, non-random, and if you could get the data and do the math, a predictable situation. Maybe I'm missing something, or we're talking about different things? Nietzsche's "eternal return" posited just this type of situation, a limited (though huge) amount of stuff, and a limitless amount of time, well with those two you'd relive your life an eternal amount of times, presumably. As an aside, I personally find a warming way of thinking of this idea by fictionalizing it to imagine that "I" might live a future life of every other person and even animal. Maybe by thinking like this I will be more likely to treat them as ends in themselves, and not as a means to an end, that's to say, closer to Kant's "categorical imperative". That would be nice.

edblarney 10y ago
"you should have a purely deterministic, non-random, and if you could get the data and do the math, a predictable situation." From a Newtonian/Classical perspective - yes. But we're at quantum physics now - so no. Every single particle interaction is basically 'inherently random'. Also - what you are saying would apply to 'us' as well, that we are all deterministic ... again, because we're living quantum (as far as we know) - no, it's random. Purely random is where materialism stands now. I should add that materialism is just one metaphysical presupposition.
- malloryerik 10y ago
  What I don't understand is how much indeterminacy the quantum allows into our Classical-seeming world. At what levels? I completely agree that the classical determinism I mentioned also applies to us. One of my questions is whether and then how and then to what degree the randomness from quantum events can allow free will and then free action. So, I wonder how much quantum randomness affects things. For example, atomic clocks face indeterminacy but are all the same the most accurate clocks we have, by far. Of course, once you add things like eternities, this can surely get very different... But 13 billion years is very far from an eternity... Also I do understand that materialism is only one of many metaphysical suppositions. But it's the one that we can seem to do the most with. Hard to do much with metaphysical idealism, for example... Anyway I'm no scientist or mathematician or philosopher so I'm out of my depth here. I'd be interested in your thoughts though. Thanks ~~
  - edblarney 10y ago
    Neither a philosopher nor a physicist, but I'm pretty certain that our Universe is not deterministic, and the future cannot be predicted even with a computer with unlimited power. But I see your point about how some macro-level things seem to be that way.
- PeterWhittaker 10y ago
  "you should have a purely deterministic, non-random, and if you could get the data and do the math, a predictable situation." From a Newtonian/Classical perspective - yes. Well, maybe not! It's possible that indeterminism may be found in classical mechanics; the classic example is Norton's Dome, discussed in [1] with another reference in [2]. If you read [1], you'll see that there isn't yet any general agreement as to why its paradox is invalid. That's a potentially fruitful avenue for research, methinks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton%27s_dome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton%27s_dome [2] http://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/2678/history-of-the-study-of-indeterminism-in-classical-mechanics http://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/2678/history-of-the-s...
  - malloryerik 10y ago
    Very interesting!

edblarney 10y ago

"you should have a purely deterministic, non-random, and if you could get the data and do the math, a predictable situation." From a Newtonian/Classical perspective - yes. But we're at quantum physics now - so no. Every single particle interaction is basically 'inherently random'. Also - what you are saying would apply to 'us' as well, that we are all deterministic ... again, because we're living quantum (as far as we know) - no, it's random. Purely random is where materialism stands now. I should add that materialism is just one metaphysical presupposition.

malloryerik 10y ago
What I don't understand is how much indeterminacy the quantum allows into our Classical-seeming world. At what levels? I completely agree that the classical determinism I mentioned also applies to us. One of my questions is whether and then how and then to what degree the randomness from quantum events can allow free will and then free action. So, I wonder how much quantum randomness affects things. For example, atomic clocks face indeterminacy but are all the same the most accurate clocks we have, by far. Of course, once you add things like eternities, this can surely get very different... But 13 billion years is very far from an eternity... Also I do understand that materialism is only one of many metaphysical suppositions. But it's the one that we can seem to do the most with. Hard to do much with metaphysical idealism, for example... Anyway I'm no scientist or mathematician or philosopher so I'm out of my depth here. I'd be interested in your thoughts though. Thanks ~~
- edblarney 10y ago
  Neither a philosopher nor a physicist, but I'm pretty certain that our Universe is not deterministic, and the future cannot be predicted even with a computer with unlimited power. But I see your point about how some macro-level things seem to be that way.
PeterWhittaker 10y ago
"you should have a purely deterministic, non-random, and if you could get the data and do the math, a predictable situation." From a Newtonian/Classical perspective - yes. Well, maybe not! It's possible that indeterminism may be found in classical mechanics; the classic example is Norton's Dome, discussed in [1] with another reference in [2]. If you read [1], you'll see that there isn't yet any general agreement as to why its paradox is invalid. That's a potentially fruitful avenue for research, methinks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton%27s_dome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton%27s_dome [2] http://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/2678/history-of-the-study-of-indeterminism-in-classical-mechanics http://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/2678/history-of-the-s...
- malloryerik 10y ago
  Very interesting!