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I think this has more to do with NATO having encircled the Russian Federation with those anti-missile-missiles that were apparently put on the border with Russi

I think this has more to do with NATO having encircled the Russian Federation with those anti-missile-missiles that were apparently put on the border with Russia to counter a threat from Iran. This has been seen as an aggressive move in Russia and the current thinking inside the Kremlin is to go back to MAD with a credible deterrent and credible defence. Whether it is technically feasible or not is one thing, the bigger picture is what those clowns in NATO are doing and how that the world situation is pretty bad re: aggression towards Russia, a country we need in Europe for things like oil/gas and security. It is the sanity of our leaders and not the technical ability of their engineers that we should be questioning.

woodman 10y ago
> ... go back to MAD with a credible deterrent and credible defence. Whether it is technically feasible or not is one thing... It isn't credible if it isn't technically feasible, it is just a waste of money and it looks foolish. While I can understand how Russia would be upset about NATO neutering its nuclear arsenal with anti ballistic missile systems, I have a hard time believing that intelligent people actually think NATO wants to invade Russia. It is just frustration over a censor bar being placed over the dick waving.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  My impression is that Russia (Putin) feels threatened by NATO. That may not be the threat of invasion. It might be just the threat of being no longer the dominant power in the neighborhood, and therefore unable to push people around. But I think Russia may in fact fear invasion. Germany went from "no threat" to "building up their military but having a treaty with Russia" to "invading Russia" in nine years. If that invasion had been launched from the eastern Ukraine instead of from the middle of Poland, it very plausibly could have broken Russia. Russia doesn't have half of Poland as a buffer anymore. It doesn't even have (most of) Ukraine. I think that Russia is extremely over-sensitive - even paranoid - given the current circumstances. But circumstances change, sometimes rather rapidly. Given history (not just Germany, but also France), Russia has some grounds for fearing Europe. "But Europe is different now!" True... until it's not. Look, I'm not defending Putin. But he's not totally nuts to be worried.
  - woodman 10y ago
    > ... threat of being no longer the dominant power... That is pretty obvious, with the silly resumption of strategically useless bomber flights nearly 10 years ago. > Germany went from "no threat" to ... You might have a better grasp of the history than me, but it was my impression that by 1933 everybody was keenly aware of how dangerous Germany was getting - with the book burning and Nazi parading. Hopefully Russia has learned not to trust treaty partners that behave so. That is a pretty long lead time, and the only country that I can think of right now that exhibits similar behavior is Turkey. So unless Russia is concerned about a Neo-Ottoman empire invasion, they really don't have an excuse.
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      Germany was headed toward being a threat in 1933, for those with eyes to see. But they weren't a threat yet, because they had no military. It had been gutted by the treaty at the end of World War I. They couldn't have invaded Russia, or even Poland, with what they had in 1933.
      - woodman 10y ago
        In 1931 Germany's rearmament was public knowledge, and oddly enough the Soviets were well aware - because they were the ones training German airforce pilots. That plus the withdrawal from the League of Nations was a pretty big hint. Now I can agree with the argument that the Soviets didn't know that Germany was going to target them, but by 1933 it was clear that Germany was going to cause some major problems in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re-armament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re-armament
        AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        In 1931 Germany's rearmament may have been public knowledge, but it didn't amount to much. Police that could become military reserve? Training pilots? OK, that was breaking the treaty (and TIL that it was going on before 1933), but where were the actual non-reserve divisions? Where were the tanks? The airplanes? The warships? They weren't there. Conscription wasn't reintroduced until 1935.
hx87 10y ago
> the bigger picture is what those clowns in NATO are doing and how that the world situation is pretty bad re: aggression towards Russia If the Russian government feels threatened by an ABM system that can shoot down maybe 10-20 missiles and isn't any more sophisticated than the S-400/500, then either their ballistic missile count is much lower than their claim, or NATO aren't the ones being clowns.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
Our system is hardly better than what the Russians have, but because people like your read sites like RT uncritically, you think we have some magical shield that can stop thousands of nukes and their countermeasures. Our system can perhaps drop a handful of launches from a rogue state like North Korea or Iran, depending on the sophistication of their counter-measures. Some analysts think it may not be able to shoot down anything by a determined rogue state. Its also been tailored via various agreements and protests by Russia to only have so much capacity and to be in locations where it can only affect N Korea and the Middle East. The idea that it invalidates MAD is hysterical. Worse, if you worry about countries joining the EU and NATO, maybe Russian should stop invading its neighbors, annexing their lands, and stop blowing up civilians. Want friends? Be friendly.

woodman 10y ago

> ... go back to MAD with a credible deterrent and credible defence. Whether it is technically feasible or not is one thing... It isn't credible if it isn't technically feasible, it is just a waste of money and it looks foolish. While I can understand how Russia would be upset about NATO neutering its nuclear arsenal with anti ballistic missile systems, I have a hard time believing that intelligent people actually think NATO wants to invade Russia. It is just frustration over a censor bar being placed over the dick waving.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
My impression is that Russia (Putin) feels threatened by NATO. That may not be the threat of invasion. It might be just the threat of being no longer the dominant power in the neighborhood, and therefore unable to push people around. But I think Russia may in fact fear invasion. Germany went from "no threat" to "building up their military but having a treaty with Russia" to "invading Russia" in nine years. If that invasion had been launched from the eastern Ukraine instead of from the middle of Poland, it very plausibly could have broken Russia. Russia doesn't have half of Poland as a buffer anymore. It doesn't even have (most of) Ukraine. I think that Russia is extremely over-sensitive - even paranoid - given the current circumstances. But circumstances change, sometimes rather rapidly. Given history (not just Germany, but also France), Russia has some grounds for fearing Europe. "But Europe is different now!" True... until it's not. Look, I'm not defending Putin. But he's not totally nuts to be worried.
- woodman 10y ago
  > ... threat of being no longer the dominant power... That is pretty obvious, with the silly resumption of strategically useless bomber flights nearly 10 years ago. > Germany went from "no threat" to ... You might have a better grasp of the history than me, but it was my impression that by 1933 everybody was keenly aware of how dangerous Germany was getting - with the book burning and Nazi parading. Hopefully Russia has learned not to trust treaty partners that behave so. That is a pretty long lead time, and the only country that I can think of right now that exhibits similar behavior is Turkey. So unless Russia is concerned about a Neo-Ottoman empire invasion, they really don't have an excuse.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    Germany was headed toward being a threat in 1933, for those with eyes to see. But they weren't a threat yet, because they had no military. It had been gutted by the treaty at the end of World War I. They couldn't have invaded Russia, or even Poland, with what they had in 1933.
    - woodman 10y ago
      In 1931 Germany's rearmament was public knowledge, and oddly enough the Soviets were well aware - because they were the ones training German airforce pilots. That plus the withdrawal from the League of Nations was a pretty big hint. Now I can agree with the argument that the Soviets didn't know that Germany was going to target them, but by 1933 it was clear that Germany was going to cause some major problems in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re-armament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re-armament
      - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        In 1931 Germany's rearmament may have been public knowledge, but it didn't amount to much. Police that could become military reserve? Training pilots? OK, that was breaking the treaty (and TIL that it was going on before 1933), but where were the actual non-reserve divisions? Where were the tanks? The airplanes? The warships? They weren't there. Conscription wasn't reintroduced until 1935.

hx87 10y ago

> the bigger picture is what those clowns in NATO are doing and how that the world situation is pretty bad re: aggression towards Russia If the Russian government feels threatened by an ABM system that can shoot down maybe 10-20 missiles and isn't any more sophisticated than the S-400/500, then either their ballistic missile count is much lower than their claim, or NATO aren't the ones being clowns.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

Our system is hardly better than what the Russians have, but because people like your read sites like RT uncritically, you think we have some magical shield that can stop thousands of nukes and their countermeasures. Our system can perhaps drop a handful of launches from a rogue state like North Korea or Iran, depending on the sophistication of their counter-measures. Some analysts think it may not be able to shoot down anything by a determined rogue state. Its also been tailored via various agreements and protests by Russia to only have so much capacity and to be in locations where it can only affect N Korea and the Middle East. The idea that it invalidates MAD is hysterical. Worse, if you worry about countries joining the EU and NATO, maybe Russian should stop invading its neighbors, annexing their lands, and stop blowing up civilians. Want friends? Be friendly.