7 ms·

Question for HN: I'm in the market for a new Android phone. If I want to avoid this sort of thing, are there manufacturers I should steer clear of?

kbart 10y ago
Get a phone that supports CyanogenMod. Sure, baseband still remains a blackbox and possibly backdoored, but at least you can get rid of most spyware/adware that comes preinstalled with Android. While we don't have fully open source OS with open drivers for smartphones, you cannot trust any manufacturer.
- mnw21cam 10y ago
  Or simply skip that step and get a phone that comes with CyanogenOS installed.
  - kbart 10y ago
    How do you know then that CyanogenOS itself was not modified to include unwanted software?
    - dandelion_lover 10y ago
      I guess one could believe the commercial companies whose revenue depends on the trust and on the ethics, such as https://tehnoetic.com/mobile-devices https://tehnoetic.com/mobile-devices.
      - jlgaddis 10y ago
        Like this exact article/submission that we're all commenting on, where a commercial company did exactly that?
        dandelion_lover 10y ago
        Not exactly. I would not say their revenue depended on ethics...
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- jwfxpr 10y ago
  Baseband concerns are legitimate. A good tinfoil hat approach is to use an iPod touch running an end-to-end encrypted messaging/calling app of your choice, connected to a secure hotspot. Cuts out most baseband vulnerabilities (since your data is encrypted before touching any hardware or software connected to a potentially compromised baseband). All other concerns raised elsewhere here still apply, but the baseband threat is mitigated. Worth it...? Check that threat model again.
  - kbart 10y ago
    "A good tinfoil hat approach is to use an iPod touch running an end-to-end encrypted messaging/calling app of your choice, connected to a secure hotspot." Yes, but it's not much of a phone if it's WiFi only. You could use any laptop for such scenario as well.
    - jwfxpr 10y ago
      You could, though the attack surface on a laptop is arguably much larger than that on an iPod. And considering most security-conscious users are unlikely to use a classical cellular phone call for a sensitive conversation, it's actually pretty comparable to a phone, considering your hotspot can be as dumb as you like. An iPod + a prepaid portable hotspot is a damn sight more usable on the go than a laptop.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
luke-stanley 10y ago
Maybe phones that support Cyanogenmod or Replicant? Perhaps device makers that know how to compile source and host the updates themselves are more likely to have more control over the firmware. So we might ask, what the update policy is, do they provide updates?
dandelion_lover 10y ago
The only good choice may be https://neo900.org https://neo900.org.
- aluhut 10y ago
  > 990 EUR Before taxes (VAT, etc.) So this is the threshold I'll have to pass to get a chance for true privacy? A throw-away phone without ID bound to it would be my way to go then.
  - dandelion_lover 10y ago
    We have to start somewhere. I am asking anyone who can to go for it (I have no connection to this company). We can hope that later it will become more affordable.
    - aluhut 10y ago
      I wish you luck. For all of us :)
ff10 10y ago
"Because Adups has not published a list of affected phones, it is not clear how users can determine whether their phones are vulnerable. “People who have some technical skills could,” Mr. Karygiannis, the Kryptowire vice president, said. “But the average consumer? No.”" Seems to be some work ahead if you want to find out which phone doesn't use this service. And we're only talking about this particular service.
kogepathic 10y ago
> I'm in the market for a new Android phone. Find a phone which has a large community around it, and lots of custom ROMs available. An official Cyanogenmod release is a good sign. It's also a sign that your phone will have a longer usable life than whatever the manufacturer promises you now. Custom ROMs have a long history of extending the life of phones. For example the HTC G1 was abandoned by Google at Donut (1.6) but unofficially received up to Gingerbread (2.3). It's a bit of a perverse example, but hopefully enough to make the point. Phones with good community support receive current versions of Android long after both Google and the manufacturer have stopped giving a shit. To the people who say "you can't trust a random stranger on the internet making a custom ROM to be any more secure than the manufacturer ROM" you're right. If someone wanted to make a custom ROM with malware in it, there's a pretty good chance it may not be noticed. If your threat model includes a three letter agency, then don't use Android. Full stop. The iPhone is the ecosystem you want. I recommend to all my friends and family to buy phones with good community support just to receive updates to ROMs like Cyanogen. The first thing I do when they say they're considering "Phone XYZ" is to look on XDA Developers[0] to gauge the level of community around the model. If it looks dead (e.g. look up any tablet based on the NVidia Tegra for what not to buy [1]) then I recommend they keep looking. I've had really good luck with Chinese phones which are also sold in markets like South East Asia and India. There are millions of users of these phones, so the custom ROM community is quite strong. The hardware is also quite cheap, I have a Xiaomi Redmi 2 I bought last year for $125 USD including shipping, and it runs Android 7 thanks to community developers [2]. [0] http://forum.xda-developers.com http://forum.xda-developers.com [1] http://forum.xda-developers.com/mi-pad http://forum.xda-developers.com/mi-pad [2] http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2 http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2
- andy_ppp 10y ago
  Sounds great! Does Android 7 run smoothly and stable-y on this device?
  - kogepathic 10y ago
    Not quite yet. There are still some issues to be worked out. [0] It runs Android 6 (CM13) great, just in my opinion Nougat isn't polished enough for daily use. [0] http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2/development/rom-cyanogenmod-14-0-t3476873 http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2/development/rom-cyan...
sampo 10y ago
If you are in the US, the same phone has different submodels for each US operator, and some of these submodels (likely from AT&T and Verizon) may have a locked bootloader, preventing you from installing custom ROMs. For example, Samsung Galaxy S5 from T-Mobile (SM-G900T) you can put Cyanogenmod on, but Samsumg Galaxy S5 from AT&T (SM-G900A) you can not.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
All of them except phones made/designed/whatever by Google. That leaves you the Nexus and Pixel lines only. There's a fair bit more oversight there and no shady third-party ROM with 'helpful' spying applications shipped by default (and often uninstallable). Nor do carriers get to modify the ROM themselves or install their own apps. Android is pretty much a wasteland outside of the Nexus/Pixel line. Ignoring security and privacy, you just have a lot of shovelware involved along with a lack of commitment to timely, or if any, updates. I would feel confident a Nexus/Pixel is a secure and nonsense free as a phone running CyanogenMod. Of course, that's difficult to prove, but historically we haven't seen anything like this on a Nexus/Pixel device.
- tdkl 10y ago
  Pixel ? The phone which advertises/ships with a data collection assistant ?
- pdimitar 10y ago
  I will have to disagree. AFAIK, the recent Qualcomm exploits don't affect Samsung's Exynos SoC. I have an Exynos S7 Edge and it ships with a feature to disallow (read: kill) apps trying to work in the background. After I fine-tuned this list, the phone's battery life improved noticeably. Battery life has actually been slowly and steadily improving after each update by Samsung. I imagine this is a sign of Samsung not liking Google's spyware very much and trying their best to limit background activity. None of us has solid proof of course, but judging by observable facts (and by the pretty awful battery life of the Nexus 6P and the Pixels -- compared to the Exynos S7 Edge at least), I'd say mine aren't that crazy.

kbart 10y ago

Get a phone that supports CyanogenMod. Sure, baseband still remains a blackbox and possibly backdoored, but at least you can get rid of most spyware/adware that comes preinstalled with Android. While we don't have fully open source OS with open drivers for smartphones, you cannot trust any manufacturer.

mnw21cam 10y ago
Or simply skip that step and get a phone that comes with CyanogenOS installed.
- kbart 10y ago
  How do you know then that CyanogenOS itself was not modified to include unwanted software?
  - dandelion_lover 10y ago
    I guess one could believe the commercial companies whose revenue depends on the trust and on the ethics, such as https://tehnoetic.com/mobile-devices https://tehnoetic.com/mobile-devices.
    - jlgaddis 10y ago
      Like this exact article/submission that we're all commenting on, where a commercial company did exactly that?
      - dandelion_lover 10y ago
        Not exactly. I would not say their revenue depended on ethics...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
jwfxpr 10y ago
Baseband concerns are legitimate. A good tinfoil hat approach is to use an iPod touch running an end-to-end encrypted messaging/calling app of your choice, connected to a secure hotspot. Cuts out most baseband vulnerabilities (since your data is encrypted before touching any hardware or software connected to a potentially compromised baseband). All other concerns raised elsewhere here still apply, but the baseband threat is mitigated. Worth it...? Check that threat model again.
- kbart 10y ago
  "A good tinfoil hat approach is to use an iPod touch running an end-to-end encrypted messaging/calling app of your choice, connected to a secure hotspot." Yes, but it's not much of a phone if it's WiFi only. You could use any laptop for such scenario as well.
  - jwfxpr 10y ago
    You could, though the attack surface on a laptop is arguably much larger than that on an iPod. And considering most security-conscious users are unlikely to use a classical cellular phone call for a sensitive conversation, it's actually pretty comparable to a phone, considering your hotspot can be as dumb as you like. An iPod + a prepaid portable hotspot is a damn sight more usable on the go than a laptop.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

luke-stanley 10y ago

Maybe phones that support Cyanogenmod or Replicant? Perhaps device makers that know how to compile source and host the updates themselves are more likely to have more control over the firmware. So we might ask, what the update policy is, do they provide updates?

dandelion_lover 10y ago

The only good choice may be https://neo900.org https://neo900.org.

aluhut 10y ago
> 990 EUR Before taxes (VAT, etc.) So this is the threshold I'll have to pass to get a chance for true privacy? A throw-away phone without ID bound to it would be my way to go then.
- dandelion_lover 10y ago
  We have to start somewhere. I am asking anyone who can to go for it (I have no connection to this company). We can hope that later it will become more affordable.
  - aluhut 10y ago
    I wish you luck. For all of us :)

ff10 10y ago

"Because Adups has not published a list of affected phones, it is not clear how users can determine whether their phones are vulnerable. “People who have some technical skills could,” Mr. Karygiannis, the Kryptowire vice president, said. “But the average consumer? No.”" Seems to be some work ahead if you want to find out which phone doesn't use this service. And we're only talking about this particular service.

kogepathic 10y ago

> I'm in the market for a new Android phone. Find a phone which has a large community around it, and lots of custom ROMs available. An official Cyanogenmod release is a good sign. It's also a sign that your phone will have a longer usable life than whatever the manufacturer promises you now. Custom ROMs have a long history of extending the life of phones. For example the HTC G1 was abandoned by Google at Donut (1.6) but unofficially received up to Gingerbread (2.3). It's a bit of a perverse example, but hopefully enough to make the point. Phones with good community support receive current versions of Android long after both Google and the manufacturer have stopped giving a shit. To the people who say "you can't trust a random stranger on the internet making a custom ROM to be any more secure than the manufacturer ROM" you're right. If someone wanted to make a custom ROM with malware in it, there's a pretty good chance it may not be noticed. If your threat model includes a three letter agency, then don't use Android. Full stop. The iPhone is the ecosystem you want. I recommend to all my friends and family to buy phones with good community support just to receive updates to ROMs like Cyanogen. The first thing I do when they say they're considering "Phone XYZ" is to look on XDA Developers[0] to gauge the level of community around the model. If it looks dead (e.g. look up any tablet based on the NVidia Tegra for what not to buy [1]) then I recommend they keep looking. I've had really good luck with Chinese phones which are also sold in markets like South East Asia and India. There are millions of users of these phones, so the custom ROM community is quite strong. The hardware is also quite cheap, I have a Xiaomi Redmi 2 I bought last year for $125 USD including shipping, and it runs Android 7 thanks to community developers [2]. [0] http://forum.xda-developers.com http://forum.xda-developers.com [1] http://forum.xda-developers.com/mi-pad http://forum.xda-developers.com/mi-pad [2] http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2 http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2

andy_ppp 10y ago
Sounds great! Does Android 7 run smoothly and stable-y on this device?
- kogepathic 10y ago
  Not quite yet. There are still some issues to be worked out. [0] It runs Android 6 (CM13) great, just in my opinion Nougat isn't polished enough for daily use. [0] http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2/development/rom-cyanogenmod-14-0-t3476873 http://forum.xda-developers.com/redmi-2/development/rom-cyan...

sampo 10y ago

If you are in the US, the same phone has different submodels for each US operator, and some of these submodels (likely from AT&T and Verizon) may have a locked bootloader, preventing you from installing custom ROMs. For example, Samsung Galaxy S5 from T-Mobile (SM-G900T) you can put Cyanogenmod on, but Samsumg Galaxy S5 from AT&T (SM-G900A) you can not.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

All of them except phones made/designed/whatever by Google. That leaves you the Nexus and Pixel lines only. There's a fair bit more oversight there and no shady third-party ROM with 'helpful' spying applications shipped by default (and often uninstallable). Nor do carriers get to modify the ROM themselves or install their own apps. Android is pretty much a wasteland outside of the Nexus/Pixel line. Ignoring security and privacy, you just have a lot of shovelware involved along with a lack of commitment to timely, or if any, updates. I would feel confident a Nexus/Pixel is a secure and nonsense free as a phone running CyanogenMod. Of course, that's difficult to prove, but historically we haven't seen anything like this on a Nexus/Pixel device.

tdkl 10y ago
Pixel ? The phone which advertises/ships with a data collection assistant ?
pdimitar 10y ago
I will have to disagree. AFAIK, the recent Qualcomm exploits don't affect Samsung's Exynos SoC. I have an Exynos S7 Edge and it ships with a feature to disallow (read: kill) apps trying to work in the background. After I fine-tuned this list, the phone's battery life improved noticeably. Battery life has actually been slowly and steadily improving after each update by Samsung. I imagine this is a sign of Samsung not liking Google's spyware very much and trying their best to limit background activity. None of us has solid proof of course, but judging by observable facts (and by the pretty awful battery life of the Nexus 6P and the Pixels -- compared to the Exynos S7 Edge at least), I'd say mine aren't that crazy.