4 ms·

Sure, if you constrain the discussion in such a way that you restrict the candidate set to only countries that have lower homicide rates than the US, the result

by roel_v 10y ago

Sure, if you constrain the discussion in such a way that you restrict the candidate set to only countries that have lower homicide rates than the US, the result set is empty. But even then; let's take all countries with a human development index in the 'very high' or 'high' categories; there is Argentina, Turkey, Russia, ... Or I can just as easily flip this around: why don't you list some countries with as high economic inequality and poverty problems, and as diverse a social make up, with strict gun control laws that has lower homicide rates? If you're going to subset countries into comparable groups, at least do it on honest criteria - like relative poverty rates or other income inequality metrics. Then it becomes obvious quite soon that the major driver of crime is (get this!) economic in nature. (edit: changed 'you if' to 'if you')

ajmurmann 10y ago
Are there any countries with comparable inequality and diversity? Only South Africa and maybe Australia come to mind, but I think even those lag behind on diversity quite a bit.
- kofejnik 10y ago
  Devils advocate asks: so maybe it's diversity that causes higher murder rate, not guns? Switzerland has very low crime afair
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    I totally got your point and you actually convinced me of it. I do wonder though if given the diversity and disparity of income banning guns wouldn't help getting the homicide rate down. Even though the guns aren't causing the issue (as you well demonstrated) they might be exacerbating it. We are not gonna make the US magically less diverse and unfortunately won't close the income gap over night. I was still curious though if there are other countries with the same diversity and wealth gap. That's what prompted my original comment.
na85 10y ago
You're constructing a straw man to argue with. My point remains that in the case of the US vs a similarly-sized population drawn from other first-world countries, the US has a dramatically higher rate of gun deaths. There's really no point in arguing this fact; you can go look it up for yourself. If you think that that is a dishonest comparison, well, I can't help you.
- roel_v 10y ago
  Well I have rebuked the core two tenets of your argument several times in this thread, i.e. the cherry picking in your 'first world countries', and the 'gun deaths are different from other deaths' part, and all you can come back with is 'there is no point arguing' (uh?), 'you can go look it up' (I did, and showed you where, and you just ignore it) and 'I can't help you'. It seems to me you're the one who's too caught up in their identity politics to entertain the facts.
  - na85 10y ago
    Literally nowhere have I mentioned identity politics of any sort. Your "rebukes" have been nonsensical, as if you're not actually reading what's written. You're responding to some imaginary argument that you have constructed.

by roel_v 10y ago

ajmurmann 10y ago

Are there any countries with comparable inequality and diversity? Only South Africa and maybe Australia come to mind, but I think even those lag behind on diversity quite a bit.

kofejnik 10y ago
Devils advocate asks: so maybe it's diversity that causes higher murder rate, not guns? Switzerland has very low crime afair
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  I totally got your point and you actually convinced me of it. I do wonder though if given the diversity and disparity of income banning guns wouldn't help getting the homicide rate down. Even though the guns aren't causing the issue (as you well demonstrated) they might be exacerbating it. We are not gonna make the US magically less diverse and unfortunately won't close the income gap over night. I was still curious though if there are other countries with the same diversity and wealth gap. That's what prompted my original comment.

na85 10y ago

You're constructing a straw man to argue with. My point remains that in the case of the US vs a similarly-sized population drawn from other first-world countries, the US has a dramatically higher rate of gun deaths. There's really no point in arguing this fact; you can go look it up for yourself. If you think that that is a dishonest comparison, well, I can't help you.

roel_v 10y ago
Well I have rebuked the core two tenets of your argument several times in this thread, i.e. the cherry picking in your 'first world countries', and the 'gun deaths are different from other deaths' part, and all you can come back with is 'there is no point arguing' (uh?), 'you can go look it up' (I did, and showed you where, and you just ignore it) and 'I can't help you'. It seems to me you're the one who's too caught up in their identity politics to entertain the facts.
- na85 10y ago
  Literally nowhere have I mentioned identity politics of any sort. Your "rebukes" have been nonsensical, as if you're not actually reading what's written. You're responding to some imaginary argument that you have constructed.