4 ms·

I think a good way to look at it is that it's not so much about right and wrong or about who's a victim but about average outcomes. The average outcome of pros

by jbooth 17y ago

I think a good way to look at it is that it's not so much about right and wrong or about who's a victim but about average outcomes. The average outcome of prosecuting a drug user or prostitute is you spent a bunch of government resources processing, trying and incarcerating the person in order to take someone off the streets who's not actually particularly dangerous. So, why do it? Drug dealers on the other hand frequently beef over territory, sell bad product that kills people, get into interesting sideline work, etc. And they're very few in number compared to the users. So as far as bang for the buck, it makes sense to prosecute them. Yes, there are exceptions, but you make policy for the average case and hope that your cops and DAs are smart enough to exercise some judgment when warranted.

yummyfajitas 17y ago
I don't think you really believe that logic. Hypothetically, suppose it turns out that black drug dealers are far more likely than white drug dealers to be violent criminals [1]. Would you then favor prosecuting drug crimes committed by blacks, but not by whites? Depending on what the numbers work out to be, you will get the same statistical "bang for buck" that you would prosecuting drug sellers but not sex sellers. [1] Lets give this hypothetical a TV face: take Weeds as the average white drug dealer, and The Wire as the average black drug dealer. Of course, this is only statistics - there are violent white drug dealers and harmless black drug dealers, even in the hypothetical.
- jbooth 17y ago
  I was arguing prosecuting dealers as opposed to users, because it's a massive waste of money to prosecute the latter (not that that stops us from doing it, with 3 million people in jail and growing). Entirely different argument. Regarding prosecuting black ones instead of white ones.. well we already do that, so I'd say the reality has surpassed both of us. However, as far as what I think should happen, then yes, I would differentiate between gang bangers who own corners, run protection rackets, etc and the dude in high school who sells a little weed to his friends. But as far as consistency in the law, if you're decriminalizing usage and keeping dealing criminal, then you need to apply that consistently when you catch people dealing. Anecdotally, I think the difference you're perceiving isn't so much black/white as it is weed/hard and suburban/urban.
  - rick888 17y ago
    "Regarding prosecuting black ones instead of white ones.. well we already do that, so I'd say the reality has surpassed both of us." After this statement, I can't really take you seriously. Do you have any proof beyond this statement? "However, as far as what I think should happen, then yes, I would differentiate between gang bangers who own corners, run protection rackets, etc and the dude in high school who sells a little weed to his friends. But as far as consistency in the law, if you're decriminalizing usage and keeping dealing criminal, then you need to apply that consistently when you catch people dealing." If drugs were legalized, most likely, dealing without some sort of license would still be illegal.
    - jbooth 17y ago
      Really? You're really under the impression that black people aren't systematically questioned/harrassed/arrested in proportionally higher numbers than white people? I mean that's its own whole discussion but I'd say the number of young african american men currently in jail pretty much proves the point. If you have any black friends, ask them about profiling sometime.
    - anigbrowl 17y ago
      A citation ought to have been provided, but for most people interested in this topic the disparities in prosecutions and sentencing are so well known that it might not seem necessary. http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm (copious linkage and a good overview) http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm (very detailed analysis of sentencing disparities in particular)
    - rick888 17y ago
      "A citation ought to have been provided, but for most people interested in this topic the disparities in prosecutions and sentencing are so well known that it might not seem necessary." Here is an excerpt: "Whites are primarily sentenced to prison for violent offenses and white prison admissions for violent offenses grew in the 1990s, while drug sentences actually declined somewhat" so does this mean that the system is being racist against whites in regards to violent crime? More African Americans may be getting arrested for drug-related offenses, but there is no mention if they actually interviewed a cross-section of those people to see if they actually committed the crimes. How do we know that there aren't more African Americans, on average, using more illegal drugs? Some interesting points from the article: "The second is more complex: high Black male imprisonment is associated with a rise over time in the proportion of Black children living with mothers who have not graduated from high school; this rise occurs despite an overall rise in Black mothers' education and a positive association between Black male imprisonment and the proportion of children living with mothers who are married college" So it might not have anything to do with racism. A higher percentage of black families only have a mother..and a father in Prison. I heard stats elsewhere that said that this was the case with something like 75% of black families. Children of these broken families have a much lower chance of becoming successful adults and I would say a higher chance of getting involved with illegal drugs. Racism does still happen, but not nearly as much as you are saying.
- Qz 17y ago
  ...take Weeds as the average white drug dealer... Seriously? I mean I love that show but taking as Nancy Botwin as the average white drug dealer is crazy talk.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    Lets give this HYPOTHETICAL a TV face: take Weeds as the average white drug dealer...

by jbooth 17y ago

yummyfajitas 17y ago

I don't think you really believe that logic. Hypothetically, suppose it turns out that black drug dealers are far more likely than white drug dealers to be violent criminals [1]. Would you then favor prosecuting drug crimes committed by blacks, but not by whites? Depending on what the numbers work out to be, you will get the same statistical "bang for buck" that you would prosecuting drug sellers but not sex sellers. [1] Lets give this hypothetical a TV face: take Weeds as the average white drug dealer, and The Wire as the average black drug dealer. Of course, this is only statistics - there are violent white drug dealers and harmless black drug dealers, even in the hypothetical.

jbooth 17y ago
I was arguing prosecuting dealers as opposed to users, because it's a massive waste of money to prosecute the latter (not that that stops us from doing it, with 3 million people in jail and growing). Entirely different argument. Regarding prosecuting black ones instead of white ones.. well we already do that, so I'd say the reality has surpassed both of us. However, as far as what I think should happen, then yes, I would differentiate between gang bangers who own corners, run protection rackets, etc and the dude in high school who sells a little weed to his friends. But as far as consistency in the law, if you're decriminalizing usage and keeping dealing criminal, then you need to apply that consistently when you catch people dealing. Anecdotally, I think the difference you're perceiving isn't so much black/white as it is weed/hard and suburban/urban.
- rick888 17y ago
  "Regarding prosecuting black ones instead of white ones.. well we already do that, so I'd say the reality has surpassed both of us." After this statement, I can't really take you seriously. Do you have any proof beyond this statement? "However, as far as what I think should happen, then yes, I would differentiate between gang bangers who own corners, run protection rackets, etc and the dude in high school who sells a little weed to his friends. But as far as consistency in the law, if you're decriminalizing usage and keeping dealing criminal, then you need to apply that consistently when you catch people dealing." If drugs were legalized, most likely, dealing without some sort of license would still be illegal.
  - jbooth 17y ago
    Really? You're really under the impression that black people aren't systematically questioned/harrassed/arrested in proportionally higher numbers than white people? I mean that's its own whole discussion but I'd say the number of young african american men currently in jail pretty much proves the point. If you have any black friends, ask them about profiling sometime.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    A citation ought to have been provided, but for most people interested in this topic the disparities in prosecutions and sentencing are so well known that it might not seem necessary. http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm (copious linkage and a good overview) http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm (very detailed analysis of sentencing disparities in particular)
  - rick888 17y ago
    "A citation ought to have been provided, but for most people interested in this topic the disparities in prosecutions and sentencing are so well known that it might not seem necessary." Here is an excerpt: "Whites are primarily sentenced to prison for violent offenses and white prison admissions for violent offenses grew in the 1990s, while drug sentences actually declined somewhat" so does this mean that the system is being racist against whites in regards to violent crime? More African Americans may be getting arrested for drug-related offenses, but there is no mention if they actually interviewed a cross-section of those people to see if they actually committed the crimes. How do we know that there aren't more African Americans, on average, using more illegal drugs? Some interesting points from the article: "The second is more complex: high Black male imprisonment is associated with a rise over time in the proportion of Black children living with mothers who have not graduated from high school; this rise occurs despite an overall rise in Black mothers' education and a positive association between Black male imprisonment and the proportion of children living with mothers who are married college" So it might not have anything to do with racism. A higher percentage of black families only have a mother..and a father in Prison. I heard stats elsewhere that said that this was the case with something like 75% of black families. Children of these broken families have a much lower chance of becoming successful adults and I would say a higher chance of getting involved with illegal drugs. Racism does still happen, but not nearly as much as you are saying.
Qz 17y ago
...take Weeds as the average white drug dealer... Seriously? I mean I love that show but taking as Nancy Botwin as the average white drug dealer is crazy talk.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  Lets give this HYPOTHETICAL a TV face: take Weeds as the average white drug dealer...