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I think the Internet is making a great deal of progress with regard to decentralization. On the subordination of culture to commerce, it hasn't always been thi

I think the Internet is making a great deal of progress with regard to decentralization. On the subordination of culture to commerce, it hasn't always been this way. In dynastic China, the social pecking order was this: scholars, farmers, artisans, then merchants. Although the merchant class had the most money, they were lowest on the totem pole. I'm not arguing that we should move to a caste system based on occupation, but I think it's important to note that societies haven't always allowed the rich to buy their way into elite spots. What fails about American elitism is that it's post hoc elitism. Those who have wealth and power are presumed superior and allowed to get away with almost anything (white collar criminals get busted sometimes, but usually those turn out to have humble beginnings, and they're getting nailed in part because of all the rich people they caused to lose money). For example, in our society, we take it on assumption that the nicest apartments will go to those with the most money, rather than the most cultured. Education is heading that way, as well-- sold to the highest bidder. This isn't right. Trashy celebrities and powermongers shouldn't be able to displace the natural leaders-- the ones chosen by God, genetics, and culture to make the major decisions-- or affect the lives of such people at all. I agree that a large, powerful government can be as bad as rule by large corporations, but I think that, in general, corporate rule is worse. Corporations have a unique ability to give us the worst of both worlds between socialism and capitalism, and their ad hoc "because I say so" elitism (as opposed to elitism based on talent and culture) leads to mediocrity and worse-than-useless leadership. I do think that government needs to take a stand on the issue of re-elevating the cultured and talented, but I don't think that a government needs to necessarily be massive or overbearing in order to do so.

philwelch 16y ago
A scholastic or religious or political elite isn't "chosen by God, genetics, and culture" either--it's chosen solely by culture, more precisely by whatever power system happens to exist in that culture. Most of the time, it's hereditary (so I guess genetics play a role). But there's no "talent and culture" involved in choosing that elite--they're a self-perpetuating parasitic class at best, which is why many countries had the whole lot of them killed. In fact most elitists in effect define "high culture" as the culture consumed by the elite class. On a purely artistic and creative level, this is absolute horseshit--some of the best culture was historically created for and consumed by a mass audience. A vulgar, tasteless merchant elite will gladly subsidize that, but a snobby "high-culture" elite won't. Some of the greatest music produced in the West since the 20th century originated from American blacks. The "natural elite" gifted by "God, genetics, and culture" wasn't about to let "Negro music" be popularized or even adapted by white musicians, but even the racist corporate merchant elite realized people would pay money for jazz and rock-and-roll records. And, in fact, when you talk about an elite that's "chosen by...genetics", you're talking about the functional equivalent to racism. It's possible to get into a vulgar merchant elite if you're clever and persistent no matter what, but a blue-blooded elite you have to be born into, just like a white-skinned elite.
- pw0ncakes 16y ago
  By "genetics", I invoke the Rights of Talent. It's not hereditary and certainly not racial, since talented people appear at a highly (if not completely) uniform rate across all races and ethnicities. Fact: the talented thinkers-- the people who can see the big picture, who are capable of philosophical thought, and who have a strong sense of morality and compassion-- belong on top of society. This is the Right of Talent. Control rightfully belongs to such people, and not the scumbag gangsters who rise to the top in a poorly-managed, entropy-driven system such as ours. The hereditary elitism you describe is one where a parasitic elite uses the trappings of culture but ignores the spirit of culture. Hereditary aristocracy is a horrible system-- and what our supposed market society actually is in practice (large corporations and clubby boardrooms exist to ensure the absence of meritocracy). What we need is a true "meritocracy" (I'm scared to use that word, seeing how badly it has been abused) where knowledge and thought determine who rises to power, rather than political and economic machinations.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    All very interesting. How do you propose such an elite be selected? Keep in mind you need a natural process rather than any formal institution making these decisions, since the institution itself would simply become an elite. The nice thing about a merchant elite is that they can arise through some sort of market system, with no one group or institution holding a monopoly on kingmaking. If you want to establish a philosopher elite you have to establish some sort of analog to that--and probably destroy the market in the process, especially if you're interested in allocating the nicer apartments to the philosopher elite. (There is of course a political elite as well, which is partially chosen by political institutions and partially evolving through the democratic process. Perhaps the political system could establish a philosopher elite. How do you propose it do so? Democracy obviously won't work.)
    - pw0ncakes 16y ago
      Great points, and I have to admit that I don't have all the answers. I see where we need to go, but not necessarily the path there. I think political democracy is necessary, but politics shouldn't be the core of society. We want a society that's politically democratic and has a mostly market-driven economy, but in which scholarship, creativity, and culture are revered above all. Right now, the salesmen and bean-counters dominate. I'm not saying that business leaders shouldn't have a place at the table-- the talented ones are very valuable-- but they shouldn't have control of all the seats. Right now, they (and, worse yet, their unproven and entitled progeny) do: they own our politicians and dictate our culture, and they control invitations to the parties and clubs (including, per our interest, venture capital) that are essential if you want to get anywhere in society (save a 1:100000 home-run success). As for bringing society to a morally acceptable state, it's not easy. You have to change peoples' values on a fundamental level. In the US, people accept it as "natural" that the narcissistic social bullies belong on top and the smart people ("nerds") are to be beaten up, and that the social bullies are destined to be running large companies, and that this is somehow okay. It's not, and just as easily as we wound up in this anti-intellectual arrangement, we can work a way out of it and build a society that is the opposite. With the internet and rising importance of technology, there's no better time to do so.

philwelch 16y ago

A scholastic or religious or political elite isn't "chosen by God, genetics, and culture" either--it's chosen solely by culture, more precisely by whatever power system happens to exist in that culture. Most of the time, it's hereditary (so I guess genetics play a role). But there's no "talent and culture" involved in choosing that elite--they're a self-perpetuating parasitic class at best, which is why many countries had the whole lot of them killed. In fact most elitists in effect define "high culture" as the culture consumed by the elite class. On a purely artistic and creative level, this is absolute horseshit--some of the best culture was historically created for and consumed by a mass audience. A vulgar, tasteless merchant elite will gladly subsidize that, but a snobby "high-culture" elite won't. Some of the greatest music produced in the West since the 20th century originated from American blacks. The "natural elite" gifted by "God, genetics, and culture" wasn't about to let "Negro music" be popularized or even adapted by white musicians, but even the racist corporate merchant elite realized people would pay money for jazz and rock-and-roll records. And, in fact, when you talk about an elite that's "chosen by...genetics", you're talking about the functional equivalent to racism. It's possible to get into a vulgar merchant elite if you're clever and persistent no matter what, but a blue-blooded elite you have to be born into, just like a white-skinned elite.

pw0ncakes 16y ago
By "genetics", I invoke the Rights of Talent. It's not hereditary and certainly not racial, since talented people appear at a highly (if not completely) uniform rate across all races and ethnicities. Fact: the talented thinkers-- the people who can see the big picture, who are capable of philosophical thought, and who have a strong sense of morality and compassion-- belong on top of society. This is the Right of Talent. Control rightfully belongs to such people, and not the scumbag gangsters who rise to the top in a poorly-managed, entropy-driven system such as ours. The hereditary elitism you describe is one where a parasitic elite uses the trappings of culture but ignores the spirit of culture. Hereditary aristocracy is a horrible system-- and what our supposed market society actually is in practice (large corporations and clubby boardrooms exist to ensure the absence of meritocracy). What we need is a true "meritocracy" (I'm scared to use that word, seeing how badly it has been abused) where knowledge and thought determine who rises to power, rather than political and economic machinations.
- philwelch 16y ago
  All very interesting. How do you propose such an elite be selected? Keep in mind you need a natural process rather than any formal institution making these decisions, since the institution itself would simply become an elite. The nice thing about a merchant elite is that they can arise through some sort of market system, with no one group or institution holding a monopoly on kingmaking. If you want to establish a philosopher elite you have to establish some sort of analog to that--and probably destroy the market in the process, especially if you're interested in allocating the nicer apartments to the philosopher elite. (There is of course a political elite as well, which is partially chosen by political institutions and partially evolving through the democratic process. Perhaps the political system could establish a philosopher elite. How do you propose it do so? Democracy obviously won't work.)
  - pw0ncakes 16y ago
    Great points, and I have to admit that I don't have all the answers. I see where we need to go, but not necessarily the path there. I think political democracy is necessary, but politics shouldn't be the core of society. We want a society that's politically democratic and has a mostly market-driven economy, but in which scholarship, creativity, and culture are revered above all. Right now, the salesmen and bean-counters dominate. I'm not saying that business leaders shouldn't have a place at the table-- the talented ones are very valuable-- but they shouldn't have control of all the seats. Right now, they (and, worse yet, their unproven and entitled progeny) do: they own our politicians and dictate our culture, and they control invitations to the parties and clubs (including, per our interest, venture capital) that are essential if you want to get anywhere in society (save a 1:100000 home-run success). As for bringing society to a morally acceptable state, it's not easy. You have to change peoples' values on a fundamental level. In the US, people accept it as "natural" that the narcissistic social bullies belong on top and the smart people ("nerds") are to be beaten up, and that the social bullies are destined to be running large companies, and that this is somehow okay. It's not, and just as easily as we wound up in this anti-intellectual arrangement, we can work a way out of it and build a society that is the opposite. With the internet and rising importance of technology, there's no better time to do so.