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If you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year o
by abraae 10y ago
If you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year olds to run to the sound of gunfire and perform under fire and the threat of death. You must put up with it or you do not belong in that group.
At the other extreme, if you want to join your local flying club, you can expect to be treated courteously. If anyone treats you like an asshole, the problem is with them rather than you. It can be that way, because the group is not trying to achieve anything extreme, its just for enjoyment and largely social.
If you want to join in the white hot stream of activity surrounding one of the world's most important pieces of software, its not going to be like your flying club.
Its not quite the marines either, but it is a place where very complex stuff has to get done, urgently, absolutely correctly, in the face of hundreds or thousands of interjections and "what about" from more or less well-meaning contributors who just don't have or get the big picture in the same way the core of the group does. (Talking about Linus here, not Trump :)
Sometimes, such an environment functions better with a culture of abruptness and "take no shit" is built.
Its very unfortunate for anyone who aspires to join such a group that they have to put up with that. But sometimes we have to acknowledge that that "terrible behaviour" is part of what makes the group work. Not all clubs are suitable for all people.
- icantdrive55 10y ago"you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year olds to run to the sound of gunfire and perform under fire and the threat of death. You must put up with it or you do not belong in that group." Yea, they break down guys. And yes--we have trained soldiers this way forever. I sometimes think they should do it slightly differently. It's basically negative reinforcement? I don't know of any animal that responds well to negative reinforcement. Wouldn't you want a thinking soldier? I honestly don't know, but have had friends go through bootcamp, and most are ambivalent over the training. I don't want to argue. We haven't won too many wars lately. And I don't want to go back to WW2. It was a different time. Our enemies were different. I asked my grandfather about his experience during bootcamp after he enlisted in WW2. He said it was short, and to the point. "Just kill the Germans." He said a lot of guys were shipped over there with very little bootcamp. That war was our last big win? I'm all for training, but completely breaking down a soldier doesnt make sence in our modern military. But, I've never been in war, so I'll dummy up.
- peterwwillis 10y agoIt's software. Software. Programming. There is no tough mentality required to write good software. You do not have to be a dick to write good software. Ever.
- n20 10y agoI disagree. Some software projects require a tremendous amount of communication to accomplish any task of any measurable importance. If there are three reasonable people involved in this communication, being a dick is probably not required. If there are tens of thousands of individuals involved, you will either be forced to be less than polite to some of them or you will not accomplish anything. Politely saying no takes time and effort, especially if communication isn't your strong point. If I'm walking down the street, I'll probably be pretty polite to the first homeless guy that asks me for a dollar. By the time the hundredth flags me down before I'm even halfway to my destination, I'll have boiled that initial polite response down to "Fuck off."
- omegaham 10y agoI agree with this, especially since a lot of people will interpret politeness as being a sign that your decision is negotiable. That polite "No, because of X, Y, and Z" rapidly turns into "I have made up my mind, no" and then into "This is not a fucking debate, so no, and fuck you." very quickly, especially if you're dealing with a constant deluge of stupid requests. I'm not going to judge Linus for his outbursts, as obviously his method seems to work pretty well.