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There's this bizarre thing going on on HN, reddit, and other tech sites. We saw it with Linus and we see it again with Trump. Suddenly, all these people are mak

There's this bizarre thing going on on HN, reddit, and other tech sites. We saw it with Linus and we see it again with Trump. Suddenly, all these people are making excuses for terrible behaviors and outrageous claims. Usually following a "he didn't really mean that" playbook of justifications like "productivity" or "politics" like either excuses acting like a child. Why are we afraid to call people out on the shit they say? Is this some new level of political correctness? Or do we just see these people as something to project onto and dismiss anything counter to that? No idea, but it seems we live in strange times where a man's own words are ignored for feel-good conclusions that have no merit or basis in reality.

ivraatiems 10y ago
It's not about political correctness. It's about what these people make you feel, and how you respond to it. People want to believe that somebody whom they like on one score - Linus's technical achievements, Donald Trump's ability to empathize with the working class and the poor - are likable on all scores. It's much like the classic literary 'harsh father' figure - he may beat you, he may be strict, he may never show love, but he provides for the family and he teaches you to be moral, so everything he did must have been good. The beatings must have had a purpose. It's hard for us to accept that good and bad exist in the same person, and that somebody who does good things may also do very bad things, not just discretely, but often at the same time.
- lucio 10y ago
  He's very clear in that he doesn't care about how you feel. If you understand that, and also you're ok with the idea that kernel's code quality is above everything, then join the team, else just use the product... or not.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    I think your approach is reasonable, but lots of people on HN do not take it, and suggest that people who don't like it are the ones who are wrong. That is, they genuinely think the way he behaves should be aspired to. I agree that I can't change it myself, but that doesn't mean I support it.
- cpkpad 10y ago
  There were many people greatly superior to Linus technically in the BSD community when Linux was wiping BSD's chronometers.
chc 10y ago
Has Linus Torvalds ever said anything offensive to you or anyone you know? It seems to me that the people complaining about his behavior basically don't have the standing to do so — they're attempting to police other people's interactions that didn't involve them. (This is different from Donald Trump, where people have actually complained about being wronged by him, rather than complaining about an interaction between Trump and somebody else where neither party had any complaints. And this is ignoring how offensive it is to equate telling somebody to do their job better with sexual assault and racial discrimination.)
- peterwwillis 10y ago
  You don't have to get shit flung at you to know it's offensive.
  - chc 10y ago
    Policing other people's interactions without the consent of any involved party is pure paternalism. What you think is shit being flung might be Tootsie Rolls to them, and it is not our place to tell these people how they have to feel.
    - peterwwillis 10y ago
      Consent is irrellevant. We have a society specifically to police each other. And because we suck at both policing each other and achieving consensus and cooperation, we have government. In terms of profanity, if someone says "man, I had a really shitty day today", that's not really harmful and doesn't have significant consequences. But when someone says "you are a real piece of shit", that is harmful, and does have consequences. It doesn't even matter how the recipient felt. The giver had an intent of harm that was driven probably by anger. It's the verbal equivalent to punching someone in the nose. The aggressor got angry and they wanted to inflict pain, in order to try to affect change to a scenario or thing they wanted to be different (that's what anger is). And regardless of whether the recipient was hurt, we as a society say that letting out your anger at someone in this way is not acceptable, that you are not allowed to try to injure someone, whether they felt it or not. Obviously our laws are a lot more lax about speech than about physicality, but it's the exact same concept just in different mediums. A woman may receive a sexist comment and not be bothered. But we agree not to tolerate it, whether or not she was bothered by it, because the concept, and the intention, are simply not acceptable in our society. The point is not to tell her what to feel, but to enforce our moral values as a society. If you don't like that, fuck you.
peterwwillis 10y ago
What you're talking about are ego defenses. And yes, it is in part projection. But the two cases are different. When you see one person who is personally or socially powerful, and that person is a champion of one thing you strongly believe in, you will support that person in order to have that thing come to fruition, as long as the other things that person supports aren't too distateful to you. It's then necessary to defend that person so they can continue to be your champion - either out of ego, or purely to achieve your goals. But when it's Linus, people don't defend him because they need to achieve something. They defend him mainly because of what he represents to them, and also for the work he does. When it's Trump, people defend him because he's simply the most extreme choice possible. He makes you feel good, and that combined with anger becomes a positive feedback loop. He could murder someone and people would still find reason to cheer for it, not because they like what he does, but because of what he represents to them: extremism. (and now the thread is going to go down a political spiral... oh jeez, this poor thread)
abraae 10y ago
If you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year olds to run to the sound of gunfire and perform under fire and the threat of death. You must put up with it or you do not belong in that group. At the other extreme, if you want to join your local flying club, you can expect to be treated courteously. If anyone treats you like an asshole, the problem is with them rather than you. It can be that way, because the group is not trying to achieve anything extreme, its just for enjoyment and largely social. If you want to join in the white hot stream of activity surrounding one of the world's most important pieces of software, its not going to be like your flying club. Its not quite the marines either, but it is a place where very complex stuff has to get done, urgently, absolutely correctly, in the face of hundreds or thousands of interjections and "what about" from more or less well-meaning contributors who just don't have or get the big picture in the same way the core of the group does. (Talking about Linus here, not Trump :) Sometimes, such an environment functions better with a culture of abruptness and "take no shit" is built. Its very unfortunate for anyone who aspires to join such a group that they have to put up with that. But sometimes we have to acknowledge that that "terrible behaviour" is part of what makes the group work. Not all clubs are suitable for all people.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  "you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year olds to run to the sound of gunfire and perform under fire and the threat of death. You must put up with it or you do not belong in that group." Yea, they break down guys. And yes--we have trained soldiers this way forever. I sometimes think they should do it slightly differently. It's basically negative reinforcement? I don't know of any animal that responds well to negative reinforcement. Wouldn't you want a thinking soldier? I honestly don't know, but have had friends go through bootcamp, and most are ambivalent over the training. I don't want to argue. We haven't won too many wars lately. And I don't want to go back to WW2. It was a different time. Our enemies were different. I asked my grandfather about his experience during bootcamp after he enlisted in WW2. He said it was short, and to the point. "Just kill the Germans." He said a lot of guys were shipped over there with very little bootcamp. That war was our last big win? I'm all for training, but completely breaking down a soldier doesnt make sence in our modern military. But, I've never been in war, so I'll dummy up.

ivraatiems 10y ago

It's not about political correctness. It's about what these people make you feel, and how you respond to it. People want to believe that somebody whom they like on one score - Linus's technical achievements, Donald Trump's ability to empathize with the working class and the poor - are likable on all scores. It's much like the classic literary 'harsh father' figure - he may beat you, he may be strict, he may never show love, but he provides for the family and he teaches you to be moral, so everything he did must have been good. The beatings must have had a purpose. It's hard for us to accept that good and bad exist in the same person, and that somebody who does good things may also do very bad things, not just discretely, but often at the same time.

lucio 10y ago
He's very clear in that he doesn't care about how you feel. If you understand that, and also you're ok with the idea that kernel's code quality is above everything, then join the team, else just use the product... or not.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  I think your approach is reasonable, but lots of people on HN do not take it, and suggest that people who don't like it are the ones who are wrong. That is, they genuinely think the way he behaves should be aspired to. I agree that I can't change it myself, but that doesn't mean I support it.
cpkpad 10y ago
There were many people greatly superior to Linus technically in the BSD community when Linux was wiping BSD's chronometers.

chc 10y ago

Has Linus Torvalds ever said anything offensive to you or anyone you know? It seems to me that the people complaining about his behavior basically don't have the standing to do so — they're attempting to police other people's interactions that didn't involve them. (This is different from Donald Trump, where people have actually complained about being wronged by him, rather than complaining about an interaction between Trump and somebody else where neither party had any complaints. And this is ignoring how offensive it is to equate telling somebody to do their job better with sexual assault and racial discrimination.)

peterwwillis 10y ago
You don't have to get shit flung at you to know it's offensive.
- chc 10y ago
  Policing other people's interactions without the consent of any involved party is pure paternalism. What you think is shit being flung might be Tootsie Rolls to them, and it is not our place to tell these people how they have to feel.
  - peterwwillis 10y ago
    Consent is irrellevant. We have a society specifically to police each other. And because we suck at both policing each other and achieving consensus and cooperation, we have government. In terms of profanity, if someone says "man, I had a really shitty day today", that's not really harmful and doesn't have significant consequences. But when someone says "you are a real piece of shit", that is harmful, and does have consequences. It doesn't even matter how the recipient felt. The giver had an intent of harm that was driven probably by anger. It's the verbal equivalent to punching someone in the nose. The aggressor got angry and they wanted to inflict pain, in order to try to affect change to a scenario or thing they wanted to be different (that's what anger is). And regardless of whether the recipient was hurt, we as a society say that letting out your anger at someone in this way is not acceptable, that you are not allowed to try to injure someone, whether they felt it or not. Obviously our laws are a lot more lax about speech than about physicality, but it's the exact same concept just in different mediums. A woman may receive a sexist comment and not be bothered. But we agree not to tolerate it, whether or not she was bothered by it, because the concept, and the intention, are simply not acceptable in our society. The point is not to tell her what to feel, but to enforce our moral values as a society. If you don't like that, fuck you.

peterwwillis 10y ago

What you're talking about are ego defenses. And yes, it is in part projection. But the two cases are different. When you see one person who is personally or socially powerful, and that person is a champion of one thing you strongly believe in, you will support that person in order to have that thing come to fruition, as long as the other things that person supports aren't too distateful to you. It's then necessary to defend that person so they can continue to be your champion - either out of ego, or purely to achieve your goals. But when it's Linus, people don't defend him because they need to achieve something. They defend him mainly because of what he represents to them, and also for the work he does. When it's Trump, people defend him because he's simply the most extreme choice possible. He makes you feel good, and that combined with anger becomes a positive feedback loop. He could murder someone and people would still find reason to cheer for it, not because they like what he does, but because of what he represents to them: extremism. (and now the thread is going to go down a political spiral... oh jeez, this poor thread)

abraae 10y ago

If you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year olds to run to the sound of gunfire and perform under fire and the threat of death. You must put up with it or you do not belong in that group. At the other extreme, if you want to join your local flying club, you can expect to be treated courteously. If anyone treats you like an asshole, the problem is with them rather than you. It can be that way, because the group is not trying to achieve anything extreme, its just for enjoyment and largely social. If you want to join in the white hot stream of activity surrounding one of the world's most important pieces of software, its not going to be like your flying club. Its not quite the marines either, but it is a place where very complex stuff has to get done, urgently, absolutely correctly, in the face of hundreds or thousands of interjections and "what about" from more or less well-meaning contributors who just don't have or get the big picture in the same way the core of the group does. (Talking about Linus here, not Trump :) Sometimes, such an environment functions better with a culture of abruptness and "take no shit" is built. Its very unfortunate for anyone who aspires to join such a group that they have to put up with that. But sometimes we have to acknowledge that that "terrible behaviour" is part of what makes the group work. Not all clubs are suitable for all people.

icantdrive55 10y ago
"you want to join the marines, you'll be screamed at, verbally abused, and generally pushed to your limits. It has to be that way, they are training 18 year olds to run to the sound of gunfire and perform under fire and the threat of death. You must put up with it or you do not belong in that group." Yea, they break down guys. And yes--we have trained soldiers this way forever. I sometimes think they should do it slightly differently. It's basically negative reinforcement? I don't know of any animal that responds well to negative reinforcement. Wouldn't you want a thinking soldier? I honestly don't know, but have had friends go through bootcamp, and most are ambivalent over the training. I don't want to argue. We haven't won too many wars lately. And I don't want to go back to WW2. It was a different time. Our enemies were different. I asked my grandfather about his experience during bootcamp after he enlisted in WW2. He said it was short, and to the point. "Just kill the Germans." He said a lot of guys were shipped over there with very little bootcamp. That war was our last big win? I'm all for training, but completely breaking down a soldier doesnt make sence in our modern military. But, I've never been in war, so I'll dummy up.